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Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

dobrowolski.dev

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Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 fine Youngins just don't wanna learn it

Well, that's a bit far. X11 sucks, even if its would-be successor sucks in other ways.

Everything "sucks" (has problems) the ways in which X11 "suck" are very well documented and understood, and there are few, if no surprises.

Sure, major version revisions that break the previous API exist. But in my experience there's a new one every couple of years, like branches on a tree, the main trunk will never change.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#72
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the whole XZ ordeal 1 malicious package almost got distributed in 20 years of debian history? >granting full rights to vim or xeyes I'm not sure I get what's being discussed here. Standard Xorg runs without root already. And Xeyes definitely 100% run without root, I get why you would you run vim on root, to edit root files, but also don't? Especially if you have plugins, run simple programs like echo>> , ed, grep o…

Obviously, XZ happened on Debian. But $malware can occur on any Linux distribution at any time. For a recent example just look at Arch Linux. Also, are we still assuming that we would still get only one attack over 20 years, instead of the frequency increasing to, say, one attack per year? --- But those are not my original point, XZ utils was just an example. My original point is that: why should we not practice defe…

>Obviously, XZ happened on Debian. But $malware can occur on any Linux distribution at any time. For a recent example just look at Arch Linux.

? Debian has a track record and a reputation. And Arch Linux has another, much worse, track record and reputation. You argue that it can happen to any distribution, yet it happens to one and not the other on a continuous basis, maybe it's not luck and maybe it has something to do with design and quality, quite possibly with the fact that packages are vetted and tested thoroughly before releases instead of being pushed as soon as they are available without much review.

>Also, are we still assuming that we would still get only one attack over 20 years, instead of the frequency increasing to, say, one attack per year?

If you want to make a wild bet, go to the casino. The probabilities given the current data is that there's roughly 1 malicious package over 20 years (I'm rounding up and counting the almost as a vulnerability).

>My original point is that: why should we not practice defense-in-depth, where we make sure malwares have to jump through multiple hoops (and hope that they trip on one of them!) in order to launch an attack?

I'm not convinced this is true at all. First of all you can run X servers under different users and as such isolate applications per user. As mentioned by other users, Xephyr makes nesting possible so as to not depend on root.

Thirdly, to the extent that it is possible to introduce a vulnerability through manipulating an X window, it will be possible to do so via other means like filesystem manipulation. That is, it's a system design tradeoff that if you run a malicious process as a user, the rest of your processes are almost guaranteed to be vulnerable.

Fourthly. Virtualization isn't a magic invokation that provides security on demand. You need to learn how the stuff works. For example, in the clusterfuck of container configuration, there's an Xauthority being shared that essentially undoes the whole containerization.

Virtualization is like a 5 inch thick wall, which sounds alluring to people that don't know what's on the other side of the perimeter, but it turns out that in order to do something useful, you need doors, and a house with 5 inch thick walls and a door without a key, is just as unsafe as a house with regular brick walls and a door without a key.

Virtualization is an antipattern, a patch to be applied under considerable stress, a glass to be broken in case of emergency, a move you pull when an engineering has been fired long ago and you don't want to learn about their system, a move you pull if you are in a big org where the role of the one who writes code and the one who runs commands on a system are separated by 5 more layers of roles, a hat on a skyscraper where we want to add the final few meters with pyramidal engineering, hoping that nobody asks us to add another floor.

Don't virtualize if you can avoid it.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#73

Xlibre (the only current actively developed implementation of a X11 server) has a new extension - XNamespace to address some challenges as well. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/blob/master/doc/Xnamespa...

XWayland is actively developed. XFree86, which is the "standalone DDX" you see on X11 desktops, is being actively maintained.

yes. there are X11 'servers' that exist inside other display systems.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland also has fewer features than xorg; and there are also fewer choices available Because Wayland is a strictly a window management protocol focused on policy over mechanism. > I am not even going to issues wayland has with regards to certain video graphics - that's another not mentioned issue here. We also aren't going to mention issues Xorg or XLibre have with some graphics setups, because that's neither here…

> Didn't XLibre break some applications when launched? It can't have broken as many things as Wayland

It can. Easily.

Wayland is a new protocol, without an established implementation; X11 is an older protocol, while Xorg was an established implementation and XLibre is trying to modernize its codebase. Recall https://xkcd.com/1172/ .

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, XZ happened on Debian. But $malware can occur on any Linux distribution at any time. For a recent example just look at Arch Linux. Also, are we still assuming that we would still get only one attack over 20 years, instead of the frequency increasing to, say, one attack per year? --- But those are not my original point, XZ utils was just an example. My original point is that: why should we not practice defe…

>Obviously, XZ happened on Debian. But $malware can occur on any Linux distribution at any time. For a recent example just look at Arch Linux. ? Debian has a track record and a reputation. And Arch Linux has another, much worse, track record and reputation. You argue that it can happen to any distribution, yet it happens to one and not the other on a continuous basis, maybe it's not luck and maybe it has something to…

>If you want to make a wild bet, go to the casino.

Are you seriously suggesting that the number of people attacking computer systems across the world, is the same as 20 years ago?

Wow.

No wonder why the X11 vs. Wayland argument can last for so long on HN when it's mostly ended in other Linux communities (sporatic controversies aside).

---

Furthermore. Nowhere did I mention the word virtualize in my original comment, and I do not think my comment warrants the paragraphs upon paragraphs of virtualization-bashing.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until one considers the practical implications You failed at that step. The practical implication is that every other X11 app can also read your input even when it's not in the foreground.

Every program can listen to keypresses via /dev/input

Not on my machines, or most for that matter.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously, XZ happened on Debian. But $malware can occur on any Linux distribution at any time. For a recent example just look at Arch Linux. ? Debian has a track record and a reputation. And Arch Linux has another, much worse, track record and reputation. You argue that it can happen to any distribution, yet it happens to one and not the other on a continuous basis, maybe it's not luck and maybe it has something to…

>If you want to make a wild bet, go to the casino. Are you seriously suggesting that the number of people attacking computer systems across the world, is the same as 20 years ago? Wow. No wonder why the X11 vs. Wayland argument can last for so long on HN when it's mostly ended in other Linux communities (sporatic controversies aside). --- Furthermore. Nowhere did I mention the word virtualize in my original comment,…

> Are you seriously suggesting that the number of people attacking computer systems across the world, is the same as 20 years ago?

Am I? Are you suggesting that systems 20 years ago were as secure as modern systems?

If the PoW cybersecurity theory is correct, the difficulty of atacking and defending is constant over time.

Re: Enhancing x11 Application Security with LXC (2025)

#78
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you want to make a wild bet, go to the casino. Are you seriously suggesting that the number of people attacking computer systems across the world, is the same as 20 years ago? Wow. No wonder why the X11 vs. Wayland argument can last for so long on HN when it's mostly ended in other Linux communities (sporatic controversies aside). --- Furthermore. Nowhere did I mention the word virtualize in my original comment,…

> Are you seriously suggesting that the number of people attacking computer systems across the world, is the same as 20 years ago? Am I? Are you suggesting that systems 20 years ago were as secure as modern systems? If the PoW cybersecurity theory is correct, the difficulty of atacking and defending is constant over time.

>If the PoW cybersecurity theory is correct, the difficulty of atacking and defending is constant over time

I am not the one arguing to weaken cyberdefenses and most certainly I did not write multiple paragraphs to bash on security measures ;)

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