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The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

ohadravid.github.io

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Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#71

Post by mewpmewp2 »

dqv wrote: post #69
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, people are simply fooled by pernicious sycophantic idealism, and their own cognitive biases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk LLM are great for context search, but were never real "AI" in any sense except in media/PR sensationalism. Scientific hubris and unethical use of LLM is interesting as exposes the primitive impulsive nature of many. Best of luck =3

This is my read on how people react to LLM responses, especially about personal/social issues too - that many are fooled by the LLM. On occasion, someone has shown me LLM output, believing it to be a profound and illuminating response to their prompt. Even being able to see the original prompt, the response just seemed kind of empty (blocking out the advertisingesque magnificent language leaves little substance behin…

Why did you pretend to agree with them?

Would a person with such biases, seeking validation from an LLM having been anything else without an LLM?

If everyone in real life are trying to avoid upsetting such person, the humans in their real life would offer the same experience, no? Or alternatively said person would go into conflict with anyone pointing out issues in their views, ending up only surrounding themselves with people who will agree with them in order to not upset them.

I guess my concern is why did you agree with them instead of using the opportunity to showcase another point of view?

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#72

Post by mewpmewp2 »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #70
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, that totally makes sense. You got stuck there and there's just no way out.

Indeed, indifferentism must recognize both positions with similar regard. Then address ambiguity with logic and wisdom. For example, Bayes' theorem projects a reasonable expectation given available data. =3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Wouldn't Bayes and logic lead you to immediately believe that some claims, ideas, and beliefs may be more logically sound or matter more than others, steering you away from indifferentism, but the reason why I thought you might be stuck is because you were indifferent to moving away from it.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#73

Post by Joel_Mckay »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #72
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, indifferentism must recognize both positions with similar regard. Then address ambiguity with logic and wisdom. For example, Bayes' theorem projects a reasonable expectation given available data. =3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU

Wouldn't Bayes and logic lead you to immediately believe that some claims, ideas, and beliefs may be more logically sound or matter more than others, steering you away from indifferentism, but the reason why I thought you might be stuck is because you were indifferent to moving away from it.

On occasion, the wisdom of rational self-interest resolves a precedence of each area of metaphysical, imaginary, and scientific subject matter. Often, conflating each area of study leads to nonsensical contradictions.

For example, Bayes theorem does not guarantee the best outcome, but does offer the best unbiased choice at that moment. =3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#74

Post by dqv »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #71
dqv wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my read on how people react to LLM responses, especially about personal/social issues too - that many are fooled by the LLM. On occasion, someone has shown me LLM output, believing it to be a profound and illuminating response to their prompt. Even being able to see the original prompt, the response just seemed kind of empty (blocking out the advertisingesque magnificent language leaves little substance behin…

Why did you pretend to agree with them? Would a person with such biases, seeking validation from an LLM having been anything else without an LLM? If everyone in real life are trying to avoid upsetting such person, the humans in their real life would offer the same experience, no? Or alternatively said person would go into conflict with anyone pointing out issues in their views, ending up only surrounding themselves w…

Emotional intelligence. These interactions aren't people sharing points of view, they are sharing something they see as meaningful, and no matter how politely I convey it, it's still going to come off as "that sounds stupid and meaningless". It's not like I have better advice to give. Not worth dying on that hill.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#75

Post by mewpmewp2 »

dqv wrote: post #74
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you pretend to agree with them? Would a person with such biases, seeking validation from an LLM having been anything else without an LLM? If everyone in real life are trying to avoid upsetting such person, the humans in their real life would offer the same experience, no? Or alternatively said person would go into conflict with anyone pointing out issues in their views, ending up only surrounding themselves w…

Emotional intelligence. These interactions aren't people sharing points of view, they are sharing something they see as meaningful, and no matter how politely I convey it, it's still going to come off as "that sounds stupid and meaningless". It's not like I have better advice to give. Not worth dying on that hill.

What is your relation to those people? Because, what is the use of emotional intelligence if it doesn't help them to see their biases and instead confirms them. If presumably their biases are harmful for their lives?

I just see those excuses of "emotional intelligence" to stay dishonest in my life a lot, is that the right way to live though? In a way those LLMs are doing the same though, and in a lot of ways those people are then treated as some beings that can't handle the actual real world.

I guess, just in real life when talking to people, I would just not pretend and go along with something like this, so it's uncomfortable for me to also imagine that someone would go along just for the sake of not upsetting someone for some virtue called "emotional intelligence".

I can understand being polite for the sake of it to someone old and in their deathbed, but I just really don't like the idea of pretending or lying to people with their whole lives ahead and going counter to what you believe to be the truth for some social comfort or emotional intelligence aspect. If they can't handle whatever is the truth, it's their problem to deal with, but they better know alternative views to their malformed or harmful ideas of life.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#76

Post by dqv »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #75
dqv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emotional intelligence. These interactions aren't people sharing points of view, they are sharing something they see as meaningful, and no matter how politely I convey it, it's still going to come off as "that sounds stupid and meaningless". It's not like I have better advice to give. Not worth dying on that hill.

What is your relation to those people? Because, what is the use of emotional intelligence if it doesn't help them to see their biases and instead confirms them. If presumably their biases are harmful for their lives? I just see those excuses of "emotional intelligence" to stay dishonest in my life a lot, is that the right way to live though? In a way those LLMs are doing the same though, and in a lot of ways those pe…

They are acquaintances and friends, although not close friends. It's also unclear what their biases are since I can't read their minds, so there is no way of knowing if their biases are harmful for their lives. If I knew what their biases were, I would probably have had better understanding of what the output meant to them; hence the conclusion that we do not share the same biases.

I see emotional intelligence as a tool, not some virtue to uphold. Here it is identifying the value of a relationship and avoiding potentially breaking that relationship apart simply because one aspect of it is not optimal. Not every relationship needs to have perfect alignment with my beliefs.

But more importantly, I don't have enough information about them to properly navigate a conversation about their use of the LLM for advice.

> I just really don't like the idea of pretending or lying to people with their whole lives ahead and going counter to what you believe to be the truth for some social comfort or emotional intelligence aspect.

Fine, but you're also doing that for your own comfort, and not necessarily for the benefit of the other person. It can (and often does) cause the friendship to end before you've actually helped them understand what you want them to understand. I've lost friendships this way.

I'd rather keep the relationship intact and revisit the conversation when the time is right than risk abruptly ending the relationship with the same outcome where they go through their whole life with malformed or harmful ideas. You incorrectly assume that they would "know" the alternative views just by communicating, but much like their biases allowed them to "understand" the output of the LLM, their biases may disallow them from understanding the alternate views you are trying to impart.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#77

Post by Joel_Mckay »

dqv wrote: post #76
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your relation to those people? Because, what is the use of emotional intelligence if it doesn't help them to see their biases and instead confirms them. If presumably their biases are harmful for their lives? I just see those excuses of "emotional intelligence" to stay dishonest in my life a lot, is that the right way to live though? In a way those LLMs are doing the same though, and in a lot of ways those pe…

They are acquaintances and friends, although not close friends. It's also unclear what their biases are since I can't read their minds, so there is no way of knowing if their biases are harmful for their lives. If I knew what their biases were, I would probably have had better understanding of what the output meant to them; hence the conclusion that we do not share the same biases. I see emotional intelligence as a t…

Some of the people I hold in highest regard often disagree with my opinions. The key is we all agree on verifiable facts, and found interest in differing perspectives on the implications.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Poems_of_John_Godfrey_Sax...

Have a wonderful day, =3

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#78

Post by mym1990 »

enraged_camel wrote: post #51
mym1990 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fooling yourself into thinking the LLMs are "understanding" what you are saying or asking is a trap. The output you get may be useful, but it is not due to any sort of understanding. The elements of human work you mentioned are why it can be both rewarding and painful to interact with humans, but at the end of the day it is important to keep trying to do that work/keep trying to interact with each other. I don't know…

>> Fooling yourself into thinking the LLMs are "understanding" what you are saying or asking is a trap. The output you get may be useful, but it is not due to any sort of understanding. I hear this a lot but I think it's a matter of semantics and ultimately not very useful. I don't care whether the LLM understands me the way a human would. I use the LLM to get useful output. I want it to do something and it does that…

You do you.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#79

Post by mym1990 »

drdaeman wrote: post #63
mym1990 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fooling yourself into thinking the LLMs are "understanding" what you are saying or asking is a trap. The output you get may be useful, but it is not due to any sort of understanding. The elements of human work you mentioned are why it can be both rewarding and painful to interact with humans, but at the end of the day it is important to keep trying to do that work/keep trying to interact with each other. I don't know…

It’s going to sound delusional, but my own understanding of my understanding is that there’s probably no such thing, only a feeling of familiarity and some heuristics. All I do is invoke “pictures” of semantic blobs in my mind, and my unconscious parts pull up more “pictures” in connection to that. Which I verbalize in turn, apply logic checks, and thus get this feeling that I’m meaningfully thinking about something,…

You don’t think there is such a thing as “understanding” a subject? Knowing the fundamental buildings blocks of that subject? Rearranging those building blocks within other domains to make new discoveries?

A few days ago you commented, in reference to needing an expert for imagery:

“Because someone who knows something about pixels needs to make a judgement.”

Would this person not need “understanding” of how pixels emerge into tasteful art?

This is quite terrifying, a bunch of people who have no understanding of anything, prompting a thing that also has no understanding of what the human is prompting. Good times ahead.

Re: The Exhaustion of Talking to a Tool

#80

Post by fatata123 »

jdw64 wrote: post #48
bluefirebrand wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why talk to AI though, there are plenty of humans you can reach online if you want to Many evenings I spend on voice chat with friends around the world, these days

You're right. Because conversations with AI don't force me to deal with boring code, don't scratch my ego, and they flatter me. On top of that, talking to smart developers in real life is exhausting. Putting aside whether they share my interests, there are too many arrogant people. There's also the embarrassment of being asked, 'You don't even know this?' when they have knowledge I lack. The problem is that while tha…

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