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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#71

Post by walrus01 »

avaer wrote: post #42
nonethewiser wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats pretty crazy. This kind of thing jeopardizes Claude Max.

If Anthropic is selling a dollar for less than a dollar, they are running a business that doesn't make sense. That's what jeopardizes Claude Max, not this.

Plenty of things are intentionally run at a loss (for years!) to gain market share and quantity of ongoing recurring users, or with expectation of ROI later on. Multiple generations of the Xbox hardware have been sold at a loss with the expectation that customers will purchase 300, 400, 500 dollars worth of games, which are very high margin, over the lifespan they own the system.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#72

Post by nonethewiser »

BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #31

If you're an AI booster surely you'd think this was a good thing as it means more models are available in more places to more people more easily. I'm exactly the opposite, and I think this is a good thing because I want Anthropic to suffer.

That doesnt follow.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#74

Post by BigTTYGothGF »

nonethewiser wrote: post #72
BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #31

If you're an AI booster surely you'd think this was a good thing as it means more models are available in more places to more people more easily. I'm exactly the opposite, and I think this is a good thing because I want Anthropic to suffer.

That doesnt follow.

Which part?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#75

Post by Mr_Xpes »

spindump8930 wrote: post #63
gruez wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max 5x accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output to various Chinese labs. >Here's one token reseller, they're offering Opus 4.8 for a 93% discount below official API rates: https://yunwu.ai/pricing?keyword=claude But is it cheaper than getting your own account? Otherwise this sounds like the "anthropic/openai are losing gazillions of doll…

> Claude and ChatGPT are both blocked in China So it's presumably cheaper than attempting to spin up your own method of circumventing the blocks.

[dead]

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#76

Post by rikima_ »

BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #31

If you're an AI booster surely you'd think this was a good thing as it means more models are available in more places to more people more easily. I'm exactly the opposite, and I think this is a good thing because I want Anthropic to suffer.

so it’s a good thing whichever way you look at it

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#77

Post by margalabargala »

ralph84 wrote: post #61
avaer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Anthropic is selling a dollar for less than a dollar, they are running a business that doesn't make sense. That's what jeopardizes Claude Max, not this.

Almost all consumer services have a built-in level of breakage that make them profitable. Mobile providers certainly wouldn't be able to offer unlimited calling if everyone was actually on the phone 24x7.

Sure they would. Do you know how little bandwidth a phone call takes?

A voLTE call is like 40kbps. For every person on earth to be on the phone to another person would be 4 billion calls would be about 160tbps. Which is less than 10% of the Internet's capacity.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#78

Post by lebovic »

nonethewiser wrote: post #68
amazingamazing wrote: post #15

Distillation is fundamentally impossible to protect against. All you can do is slow them down. Change my view. Eventually these Chinese companies will release some extension like Honey, which will sit on top real, non-Chinese clients and send everything to China anyway. It's over.

Distilled models are necessarily behind so long as models are progressing. Models are progressing. Maybe it will be over some time in the future. And Berkeley’s “False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs” found imitation closes the style gap fast but there is a large capability gap. https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.15717

Curiously, this isn't always true.

For example, GLM 5.1 is more capable at pentesting than the model from which it is alleged to have been distilled [1].

Intuitively, this makes some sense: you can "distill" from multiple frontier models, and you can further post-train the distilled model. But I'm not sure exactly what happened with GLM 5.1.

[1]: https://dualuse.dev/posts/chinese-models-are-sometimes-bette...

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#79

Post by [deleted] »

gruez wrote: post #52
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

>They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max 5x accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output to various Chinese labs. >Here's one token reseller, they're offering Opus 4.8 for a 93% discount below official API rates: https://yunwu.ai/pricing?keyword=claude But is it cheaper than getting your own account? Otherwise this sounds like the "anthropic/openai are losing gazillions of doll…

[deleted]

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#80

Post by xgstation »

tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

> This is one reason why Deepseek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them.

This one does not make sense to me at all.

Deepseek and GLM are openweights, even US inference provider are selling them at much cheaper price. The price is cheap because the model is more efficient.

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