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Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

economist.com

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Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#71

Post by eigenspace »

pjerem wrote: post #30
eigenspace wrote: post #14

The rapid buildout of solar, and the rise of efficient air cons for electric home heating certainly makes it seem like a much less wasteful technology than before. I still think though that people are severly underestimating the effectiveness of relative simple, low-tech options like awnings though.

> underestimating the effectiveness of relative simple, low-tech options like awnings though. I mean, I'm currently in France, with 30°C (86°F) in my bedroom, do you really think that our shutters are opened ? At some point, sunlight is not even the issue. For the night to come, like the previous night, predictions are that we will have 35°C (95F) at midnight. I'm not even sure it was this hot when I was at Las Vegas…

I didn't say anything about shutters, I said awnings. It's a testament to how much our society has forgotten about building effective homes that people think shutters are just as effective as awnings.

That said, yes, if possible, you should be installing an AC unit as well (and the awning will help make the AC unit more efficient.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#72

Post by labadi »

whilenot-dev wrote: post #57
labadi wrote: post #18

As an American living in Austria, I find this conversation really tiring. Common arguments against AC are urban heat and CO2 emissions. Living in a city where 80% of residential electricity comes from hydropower, the emissions argument seems a bit moot. For urban heat zones, AC seems to be criticized in isolation. There's never a mention of a lack of tree canopy in vast parts of the city, or that reflective pavements…

> There's never a mention of a lack of tree canopy in vast parts of the city, or that reflective pavements and green roofs are nonexistent. Can you expand on this? Because it feels like greening is always a pressing topic for any architect working here[0][1]. [0]: https://gruenstattgrau.at/news/ [1]: https://www.wien.gv.at/spezial/klimafahrplan/klimaanpassung-...

I was referring more to everyday discourse rather than city initiatives. Apologies for the confusion.

And my criticism is mainly of the city in its current form. I'm appreciative of the efforts from the city, but walking around Neubau, it's hard to describe it as anything other than a concrete jungle.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#73

Post by pjerem »

DanielHB wrote: post #49
pjerem wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> underestimating the effectiveness of relative simple, low-tech options like awnings though. I mean, I'm currently in France, with 30°C (86°F) in my bedroom, do you really think that our shutters are opened ? At some point, sunlight is not even the issue. For the night to come, like the previous night, predictions are that we will have 35°C (95F) at midnight. I'm not even sure it was this hot when I was at Las Vegas…

Awnings are significantly better than shutters, but they at most mitigate the heat and the temperature range they make the ambient confortable is quite limited.

I guess there is a cultural difference on the word here and I should have be more precise.

In France, shutters aren't like most American ones, here we mostly use either plain wood with no gap for light (old houses) or for most of the recent houses, we use rolling shutters that let 0% of light (and therefore, 0% of radiative energy from the sun) get to the window and will make the room entirely black. Also, most modern rolling shutters are white by default so they are pretty reflective.

In the current situation, it's the air temperature that fuck us by not getting down at night and so our (concrete) buildings accumulate the heat even at night.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#74

Post by kakacik »

invalidusernam3 wrote: post #19

Why has this become a meme? Sure aircon is nice but there are also reasons why it's not common in some parts of Europe. Here in central Prague a lot of the buildings are historic and protected, so you can't just gouge out a section of the building to install an aircon. Also it's generally only hot enough for aircon maybe 2-4 weeks a year. I'm seeing more and more American's yapping about not having aircon in Europe.…

I've lived in Prague for 5 years. Top apartments in buildings (most have 5-6 storeys in the center) are hardly livable during summer (not even during proper heat waves) without AC, reconstructed or not. I've been to few, folks slept on balconies if AC was not present. Woken up by 5am traffic of course. The whole city center is a mess of stone and concrete/tarmac, it heats up and stays too warm deep into each night.

I don't get this extremism, neither no AC or AC full blast freezing the room. We have ours set to mild spin aiming for 20C, it drops temperature in the room cca 4-5 degrees down compared to no AC. Still 25, very pleasant while outside 35 in shade, especially for small kids.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#75

Post by spacechild1 »

labadi wrote: post #18

As an American living in Austria, I find this conversation really tiring. Common arguments against AC are urban heat and CO2 emissions. Living in a city where 80% of residential electricity comes from hydropower, the emissions argument seems a bit moot. For urban heat zones, AC seems to be criticized in isolation. There's never a mention of a lack of tree canopy in vast parts of the city, or that reflective pavements…

> For urban heat zones, AC seems to be criticized in isolation. There's never a mention of a lack of tree canopy in vast parts of the city, or that reflective pavements and green roofs are nonexistent.

I totally agree on the importance of trees, reflective pavements, green roofs, etc.

However, pretty much everybody who is critical of AC would also support the things you've listed. Is your complaint that people do not talk enough about it? That's not really my experience.

I have the feeling that widespread use of AC would make it even harder to make these changes. At the very least, these things must go hand in hand.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#76

Post by thefz »

slibhb wrote: post #50
invalidusernam3 wrote: post #19

Why has this become a meme? Sure aircon is nice but there are also reasons why it's not common in some parts of Europe. Here in central Prague a lot of the buildings are historic and protected, so you can't just gouge out a section of the building to install an aircon. Also it's generally only hot enough for aircon maybe 2-4 weeks a year. I'm seeing more and more American's yapping about not having aircon in Europe.…

Meanwhile ~40 (mostly young) people drowned in France recently trying to cool off as temperatures exceeded 100F around Paris. It's true that historically Europe is cooler than similar latitudes in North America. But there's also an anti-AC movement in Europe based partly on environmentalism, partly on reflexive anti-Americanism, and partly due to a general preference for "naturalness"/suspicion of anything new.

> It's true that historically Europe is cooler than similar latitudes in North America. But there's also an anti-AC movement in Europe based partly on environmentalism, partly on reflexive anti-Americanism, and partly due to a general preference for "naturalness"/suspicion of anything new.

This is complete speculation from your part.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#78

Post by bob1029 »

invalidusernam3 wrote: post #19

Why has this become a meme? Sure aircon is nice but there are also reasons why it's not common in some parts of Europe. Here in central Prague a lot of the buildings are historic and protected, so you can't just gouge out a section of the building to install an aircon. Also it's generally only hot enough for aircon maybe 2-4 weeks a year. I'm seeing more and more American's yapping about not having aircon in Europe.…

> I assume they're mostly the kind that has never been to Europe

The big disconnect comes from the fact that places like Miami and Houston don't really have analogous European peers in terms of climate. There are places that come close but it's not the same.

It's one thing for it to be unbearably hot at 2-6pm. Its a different thing altogether for it to still be 80F+ at 3am every single night for months on end. You cannot escape the heat in Houston without phase change cooling technology. Latent heat removal is what most of us are paying for around here (water out of the air). Not sensible heat removal.

I can walk down my street and find 2-3k sqft sqft homes that have 5+ tons of HVAC capacity. There is a home with three condensing units and it's not much bigger than mine (I only have a single 3 ton system). I've been thinking about getting a multizone ductless installed on top of my central unit to deal with July and August.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/weather-news/articles/worst-ive-e...

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#79

Post by thefz »

Air conditioning is just a heat pump, so in a scenario in which all the indoor spaces are cooled, the outside temperature will rise significantly because all that energy must go somewhere, it does not magically disappear.

So AC is making the problem worse, or just worse for all those that are forced outside.

Re: Europeans should learn to love the air-conditioner

#80

Post by FullMetalBitch »

carlosrg wrote: post #29

I don’t understand the obsession the Americans have with claiming that we hate AC. Europe is not a country. There are countries where AC is more used. Here in Spain it’s common. It’s probably less common in other, less hot countries. Besides heat, countries with a lower GDP probably have less ACs installed than richer countries. So probably France have more AC-per-capita than Moldova, my guess is that something simil…

Even in Spain depends on the zone it can be everywhere or nowhere. In the north it's rare to find AC.

No one hates AC, it just wasn't needed.

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