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How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

blog.vidyard.com

71–80 of 81 posts

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I've been researching job search related stuff for the past ~4 months (still stuck in a limbo during that time) and so I would say I know more about the job search than most people :) Especially those that have been able to just get a job out of university (I don't have a degree) or who are already so wanted that they don't really have to worry about these things. What I pointed out are mistakes whether yo…

Let's take this sentence: If you say you're willing to work for free, that tells me one thing: You think your work is of no value to me. And so if you think that, I will also think that your work is worthless to me. Instant turn-off. As someone who has never even held a job, apparently, let alone hired another person, why would anyone believe that what you would think in this situation is in any way similar to what a…

>PS: I am a 'she'.

Oo, soory about that.

>why would anyone believe

I'm not asking anyone to believe. I'm asking to have a discussion on the points I bring forward.

>how does that reconcile with your apparent theory that work done for free is valueless

Work done for free has value. I was discussing the psychology & relationship between employer and employee when all employees at the company are already salaried and "new person" comes in and offers to work for free.

>you are using HN to practice sounding confident

That's not the way I would put it. I think (similarly to pg) that points are best expressed tersely, and so I try to keep my writings very brief and to the point.

>sounding like an idiot

Why, thank you.

>Learning to use simple qualifiers like 'in my experience'

Not necessary. This follows from the context.

>being easily tripped up

I don't see where I've been easily tripped up. Though I do enjoy that so many people jumped to respond. Even though almost no one managed or even really tried to refute my points and rather took issue with other things (boohoo you don't have enough experience to be talking about this kind of stuff, etc.)

>Then you will say 'obviously I meant this advice only for y'

This is Hacker News. We're talking tech startups here. Yeah I won't add another paragraph to talk about other industries because it's _obvious_ to everyone what I'm talking about and "Don't work for free" is an oft repeated advice on here anyways.

>'because I made a bunch of stupid assumptions!' but feel too ashamed to say that and start blustering.

I think that none of the assumptions I made are stupid. Though I am starting to notice that if I don't carefully package my opinions I will get a bunch of people in the comments who APPEAR to talk about the points I made, when really they're just annoyed at my attitude. This leads to the kind of circulatory arguing we see here, when my advice is sound but people still feel I should be less confident about my position.

>You might as well say 'database x is always the best choice'.

I would only say something like that if the purpose of the database was very clear from the context. I would never randomly drop such a statement onto HN, because everyone here uses all kinds of different databases. Your analogy is invalid.

>100 monkeys typing could have come up with the world's greatest business plan. However in practice, that does not make it worth people's time to read everything typed by monkeys.

Again an analogy that does not work. However much time however many monkeys spend on trying to understand human psychology they will not make much headway. Though if _I_ as a fellow human, take some time to try and understand human psychology, I do think it is worth the time to hear my points and argue on their merits, no matter if I had 0 or 100 jobs before. If I'm indeed talking gibberish, you're free to try and argue against my points, but since I see you talking about everything BUT my points, I'm assuming that you don't really take issue with them, but rather with me.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#72
post #5

Wow, some really big mistakes... Explains why it took 5 months to get the final interview. >but I will put in 12 hours a day, 7 days a week until I get there. >Vidyard being one of them, even if I work for free. >I'm even willing to work for free for a period of time. Never, ever, ever do this stuff - Free If you say you're willing to work for free, that tells me one thing: You think your work is of no value to me. A…

>I'm even willing to work for free for a period of time. I've done that. For a week, after that I pretty much could dictate terms. It's a lot harder to argue someone isn't worth what they're asking for as long as you haven't seen them work or worked with them. And one of my terms was that if they kept me on after the week they had to pay for the week as well. Giving free samples works very well for drugs, it works ju…

>And one of my terms was that if they kept me on after the week they had to pay for the week as well.

There are different ways of negotiating here. I think what you did is sensible. Sending in a cover letter where you immediately proclaim that you'll work for free when the position and every other employee at the company is salaried, though I feel is not. (Note he added the temporary status to his working for free in a later email)

>There is nothing desperate about it, just limit your exposure by limiting the time you'll do that and if you're as good as you think you are you even get the risk paid off.

I didn't say it WAS desperate, but that indeed I believe it COMES OFF as desperate. And mainly because mentally you'll get thrown into the pool with all the other losers who can't get hired on their own merit and thus try to get an in another way. Yeah, I guess there are a few edge cases out there where really they have all the skills but they just need some time to show them off. As the employer is busy with wading through the sea of applicants he is (imo) doing nothing more than pattern matching - if you're too strongly deviating from the norm that sets off some red flags in the employer's head.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#73
post #51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can make such a broad claim. I've been working at startups for a few years and I don't lack job offers, but they come mostly from my past experience and industry ties. I've "launched" (as in created) two small web apps in the last 6 months and even though one has a few hundred users I still only got a 15$ donation and some interesting conversations, but no job offers. Not to mention I have tens of g…

"in the Israeli startup scene ties, not launching are your best bet at getting a good job." Could you explain why?

I'll try. First I want to make sure that this is from my personal, but vast experience. I'm not saying it is the only way to get a good job, but it is the best bet.

I think the most important reason is that Israel is a small and a tight knit country, and so is the startup scene. It helps that the huge majority of talented developers served at very specific army units (the most famous is 8200). This leads to a simple truth - when I interview someone he was probably referred to me through friends or at least I know someone who worked/served with him.

When I read the article I found it funny that Amar was OK with working for free for a few months. Me and almost everyone I know served at least 3 years in the IDF which is pretty much working for free.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#74

Wow, can't believe all the negative talk, perhaps I read it in a different tone, but the story delivers what the headline says, unless you want to be really critical on the word hack. If you are persistent and prove yourself, you can go anywhere. It didn't sound to me like they treated him like crap, yeah sure they told him No, they brushed him off, and they did what any other person running a start up or even what a…

"yeah sure they told him No"

Where in the article did you find that information? I think the problem is that they never did tell him 'no', stringing him along while they had absolutely no intention in hiring him.

IMO, Amar should've moved on to a company that would appreciate him. The Vidyard guys seem like major assholes.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take this sentence: If you say you're willing to work for free, that tells me one thing: You think your work is of no value to me. And so if you think that, I will also think that your work is worthless to me. Instant turn-off. As someone who has never even held a job, apparently, let alone hired another person, why would anyone believe that what you would think in this situation is in any way similar to what a…

>PS: I am a 'she'. Oo, soory about that. >why would anyone believe I'm not asking anyone to believe. I'm asking to have a discussion on the points I bring forward. >how does that reconcile with your apparent theory that work done for free is valueless Work done for free has value. I was discussing the psychology & relationship between employer and employee when all employees at the company are already salaried and "n…

If I leave some of the thorns on, I tend to get more replies

I take issue with both your points and with you. I had written up a fairly thorough response, but I'm not interested in talking to someone who is basically trolling for attention. If you don't think your points are interesting enough to discuss on their merits, I guess it's a valid strategy to inject a bunch of extraneous flamebait, but you can hardly expect to be taken seriously for complaining that people address your flamebait presentation instead of your weak argument.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>PS: I am a 'she'. Oo, soory about that. >why would anyone believe I'm not asking anyone to believe. I'm asking to have a discussion on the points I bring forward. >how does that reconcile with your apparent theory that work done for free is valueless Work done for free has value. I was discussing the psychology & relationship between employer and employee when all employees at the company are already salaried and "n…

If I leave some of the thorns on, I tend to get more replies I take issue with both your points and with you. I had written up a fairly thorough response, but I'm not interested in talking to someone who is basically trolling for attention. If you don't think your points are interesting enough to discuss on their merits, I guess it's a valid strategy to inject a bunch of extraneous flamebait, but you can hardly expec…

I think what you're trying to say to me has merit, but you keep overreaching in your choice of words to a point that makes it extremely difficult for me to respond positively. If you say that I

- sound like an idiot

- am blustering because I'm ashamed I'm in the wrong

- think open source is valueless

- am ignorant

These are only some of the excerpts but I keep noticing that you read what I say and then concoct some grand scheme in your head instead of taking the precise wording I used to closer heart. Disagree? Then please point me to the "extraneous flamebait" I injected into my very terse OP. Maybe it's extraneous flamebait to you that I don't preface my thoughts with "In my experience ..." ?

>I had written up a fairly thorough response

I appreciate hearing your thoughts - after all that's the reason I'm on here writing these replies. Though I do feel that you take the gist of what I'm saying, creating another standpoint adding some of your own summaries of what what you believe I'm talking about to that and then arguing against that.

Again. In my OP I told OP not to say he wants to work for free and not to say out right that he's willing to work 12/7 if he wants to maximize his chances of landing a job. Do you disagree with that? If you do, I would be happy to hear your thoughts.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#77

Wow, can't believe all the negative talk, perhaps I read it in a different tone, but the story delivers what the headline says, unless you want to be really critical on the word hack. If you are persistent and prove yourself, you can go anywhere. It didn't sound to me like they treated him like crap, yeah sure they told him No, they brushed him off, and they did what any other person running a start up or even what a…

"yeah sure they told him No" Where in the article did you find that information? I think the problem is that they never did tell him 'no', stringing him along while they had absolutely no intention in hiring him. IMO, Amar should've moved on to a company that would appreciate him. The Vidyard guys seem like major assholes.

My bad, maybe they didn't specifically say No, but if you apply for a job and don't get a response, I'm pretty sure that is universally recognized as a No in the job seeking world, and I think it's clear from the article that he realized that, he just didn't care because he really wanted a job with them.

"However, I was too frustrated after being turned down everywhere else (for one reason or another) and realized that on paper, I didn’t look too great (Bachelors Degree in Science and a bunch of failed business ideas)."

Guy recognizes that he doesn't look good enough which is why he is getting No's or no responses, but he believes that he is good enough so he decides to get creative to prove it.

If you are trying hard and they aren't responding, I think you know it's because you aren't making the cut, Vidyard was sending subtle, but very well understood signals that anyone else might do, you try, no response, obviously no clicking with them, so you keep trying, because you still think you can prove something.

It sounds like people want to say either Amar is stupid or Vidyard are dicks, both had their own agenda and clearly sent each other messages about how they felt without necessarily directly saying it. How many "No's" does it take to get to a Yes in sales? Dude is a good salesman.

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is clearly in the fuzzy definition area since your argument is that you have gained enough experience in this area to give subjective life advice, the argument against simply has to involve a judgment of your level of experience. In the same way that I can't meaningfully ask "am I attractive enough to professionally model?" and respond to every "No" with "ad hominem!", when you bring your person into the argumen…

>your argument is that you have gained enough experience in this area to give subjective life advice Nowhere do I use my "authority" to try and support any of my statements. I give a list of what I thought are his mistakes and then I go off into giving some advice (the snippet) based on my own (successful) experience doing phone screens. > In my experience if you also use that confidence and directness to preemptivel…

haha, well that's definitely true isn't it!

Re: How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I leave some of the thorns on, I tend to get more replies I take issue with both your points and with you. I had written up a fairly thorough response, but I'm not interested in talking to someone who is basically trolling for attention. If you don't think your points are interesting enough to discuss on their merits, I guess it's a valid strategy to inject a bunch of extraneous flamebait, but you can hardly expec…

I think what you're trying to say to me has merit, but you keep overreaching in your choice of words to a point that makes it extremely difficult for me to respond positively. If you say that I - sound like an idiot - am blustering because I'm ashamed I'm in the wrong - think open source is valueless - am ignorant These are only some of the excerpts but I keep noticing that you read what I say and then concoct some g…

I think what you're trying to say to me has merit, but you keep overreaching in your choice of words to a point that makes it extremely difficult for me to respond positively

You could call them thorns, and see if you can draw any parallels to your own communication style, like the way you constantly overreach the actual points you're able to make. If your OP was so terse, how were you able to boil down your points from three paragraphs originally to a single sentence here? (Hint: you left out all the extraneous flamebait in this version).

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