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Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

cleantechnica.com

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Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#71

Post by outside2344 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #62
lopis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries help, but they still cost way more than direct solar and wind. We still need way more solar and wind to use directly.

Costing less than the most expensive thing they replace is the interesting threshold. That's evening peaker gas plants in most places. After batteries push gas out of that market they go on to morning peaks and so on.

This is the exact scenario they are being used in at scale. The company removes their gas peaker plant infrastructure and replaces them with batteries. Already have the grid interconnect and now can dispatch power on the millisecond level instead of hour level.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#72

Post by polairscience »

ramesh31 wrote: post #51
tapoxi wrote: post #23

I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. So far it's covered about 70% of my usage and 5.7 Mwh. I don't have a full year of data yet so I expect that number to grow as it includes the summer months. I drive an EV and this includes the car.

>I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. This is the problem still in the US. Even at ~$0.23/kwh delivered in the northeast, you're looking at an ROI of nearly five years. Fine if you can float that kind of cash to feel better about yourself, but the economics just aren't there for most people, especially in cheaper parts of the country where rates are ~$…

This perspective is always so myopic to me. I say this as someone who doesn't make much money who's in the middle of a massive solar install (DIY). I made some simulations and a spreadsheet to work out all of the scenarios and I figured out that with a loan I can come out at monthly financing costs nearly exactly my electrical bill every month. That's right, I can have a 12 kWh battery backed 18 kW whole-home installation at no additional monthly cost.

The way that these discussions get contorted online will never make sense to me. The same people who make comments about ROI and it not making financial sense also have new car-loans on vehicles that depreciate catastrophically and are worth nearly nothing in 10 years. After 10 years my solar install will have been paid off for three years, I will get free electricity, and I will have the following benefits along the way:

Additional home value/equity

Backup power in case of grid problems or catastrophe.

Free fuel for my used battery electric vehicle. (compared to ~$200 a month in gas)

As close to zero carbon footprint as you can have in our contemporary world

And that's all assuming electricity prices stay the same. That's not even talking about how hydrocarbons are a very finite resource. Saying there's no "ROI" is looking at the situation like the only variable is your monthly expenses. It's the best decision anyone with a home who has the climate can possibly make. If you value your independence and personal security you'd be crazy to not do it. What would you pay, if you have the kind of money most people on these forums do, to ensure your home operates independent of external inputs? Imagine a new great depression? Or other such event?

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#73

Post by Tade0 »

pendenthistory wrote: post #46
cbg0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50 billion dollars a year is never "almost nothing".

It's basically nothing for a entire continent, let's be real.

It's enough to fund more than a 10% increase in installed solar capacity in the EU, so if all that energy were to be used to save money, double solar capacity every 7 years - or 10 years if assuming that 3% of all panels are retired annually.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#74

Post by outside2344 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #39
runtime_terror wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries, having a mixed grid of renewables, and new advances in nuclear solves this

batteries are not yet competitive with fossil fuel

This is not true. Batteries are cheaper than peaker power plants using fossil fuel. They also allow the operator to fulfill market demands at the minute level versus the hours previously that it took to turn on a peaker plant.

This is being done at scale in California and Texas.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#75

Post by toast0 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #51
tapoxi wrote: post #23

I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. So far it's covered about 70% of my usage and 5.7 Mwh. I don't have a full year of data yet so I expect that number to grow as it includes the summer months. I drive an EV and this includes the car.

>I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. This is the problem still in the US. Even at ~$0.23/kwh delivered in the northeast, you're looking at an ROI of nearly five years. Fine if you can float that kind of cash to feel better about yourself, but the economics just aren't there for most people, especially in cheaper parts of the country where rates are ~$…

A 5 year ROI on a system that should last at least 20 years isn't an investment to feel better about yourself. It's a way to save money.

Three years ago, I was paying about $0.12/kWh, now it's about $0.22/kWh and installing a system makes sense.

It's cash up front for a savings later. My roof was due for replacement 'soon' but not immediately, and I didn't model the cost of moving that 3-5 years from the future to the present.

If you can't manage a 5 year planning horizon on a house, I'm not sure that home ownership is a great idea.

I get it if the ROI is 10+ years... too much uncertainty to put a lot of capital in.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#76

Post by Sayrus »

adamrezich wrote: post #28
chiffre01 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not nothing. Plus the fact that it's money not not getting shipped out of Europe to hostile regions is a net win.

Where are the panels sourced from?

Most panels are from China. Panels have a very long lifetime. Over their lifetime they generate way more than their price in oil. Europe is not a huge producer of oil and relies on imports to sustain its usage. Sourcing panels is effectively reducing the amount of money leaving Europe in the long term.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#77

Post by moffkalast »

luke5441 wrote: post #31
moffkalast wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've half jokingly said it before, but I think by overall impact Trump and Putin's sheer chaos is doing an order of magnitude more to transition the EU to green energy than anything else that was done deliberately to fight climate change lmao. People don't give a fuck until gasoline is 2€ per liter.

Taxing/preventing extraction of crude oil upstream would always have been the better solution.

Yeah but then it's your fault, you get voted out in 2 years, and the next government reverts it. Local governments are ever the populists for a reason.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#78

Post by ramesh31 »

polairscience wrote: post #72
ramesh31 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. This is the problem still in the US. Even at ~$0.23/kwh delivered in the northeast, you're looking at an ROI of nearly five years. Fine if you can float that kind of cash to feel better about yourself, but the economics just aren't there for most people, especially in cheaper parts of the country where rates are ~$…

This perspective is always so myopic to me. I say this as someone who doesn't make much money who's in the middle of a massive solar install (DIY). I made some simulations and a spreadsheet to work out all of the scenarios and I figured out that with a loan I can come out at monthly financing costs nearly exactly my electrical bill every month. That's right, I can have a 12 kWh battery backed 18 kW whole-home install…

>"Saying there's no "ROI" is looking at the situation like the only variable is your monthly expenses."

That's the reality of life for most people outside of our little bubble of six figure earners. If it's a higher monthly price, it's a nonstarter.

>"Additional home value/equity"

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Solar is a massive maintenance liability that a majority of buyers will avoid. Fine if you find the right one willing to pay a premium, but how much more are they going to pay for an old system vs. installing their own?

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#79

Post by toast0 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #70
forcedtolinux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

getting your money back in 5 years is pretty good, or am I missing something? That's 15% yearly

That 5 years assumes you can provide 100% of your electricity usage via solar, which is a complete fantasy outside the south/southwest US, and would realistically require a >10kw system. But again, it's also the out of pocket money we're talking about. Very few normal people can float that, and opportunity cost is real.

Why do you need to assume 100% generation???

It's all about the all-in cost of the system vs the reduction in utility bill.

If your system runs 20% of your usage, it still has whatever ROI it has.

Building to cover 100% usage isn't a typical goal if you're planning to keep the utility anyway. Most net metering doesn't pay you if you make more than you use, so if you go over, you spent too much on your system.

Re: Solar Energy Saves Europeans $135M a Day

#80

Post by polairscience »

complianceowll wrote: post #69
tapoxi wrote: post #23

I installed a solar system at my home in Massachusetts for 17k last year (after tax credits), 7.82 kw. So far it's covered about 70% of my usage and 5.7 Mwh. I don't have a full year of data yet so I expect that number to grow as it includes the summer months. I drive an EV and this includes the car.

Uh, that's absolutely badass... As an adult, one of the things that fascinate me is self-sufficiency: the idea that you can buy a solar power system, install it, and use your own power -- without getting a bill in the mail every month, many times feeling like a victim of modern day suburban subjugation. I'm still a good little obedient peasant, but I hope one day I can rely more on well water/rain catchment system, s…

If you own a home you should genuinely spend time calculating and thinking about it. It's not near as far fetched as you think. You can benefit from the same technical advancements in engineering and manufacturing that have benefited every single industrial sector. It has never been easier. The number of plug and play components out there is unreal.

These days it's very much sun-legos. You decide what you can afford and what you think you need, and then you bolt the stuff together. Anyone who is willing to put time into it is capable.

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