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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#71

Post by mrazomor »

shevy-java wrote: post #7

Great that they can vote, but this is also stupid. Plus, it works both ways, so if Switzerland wants to add a cap to limit movement then it won't be able to enjoy free movement in the EU either. I totally understand why Norway and Switzerland do not want to join the EU; the EU has tons of problems, but this kind of cherry-picking is simply unfair to the other EU members. (Also, the EU has to stop expanding. It consta…

It's not about free movement, but "free trade"/joint market.

Having rich countries support its poor neighbors is an ingenious solution to improving your quality of life. You impose your rules, regulations and monetary policy, they get capital for internal improvements. If there's no huge waste or theft (which sadly exists), you end up with wide, strong and stable continent-level middle class. Which is great goal, as we can see when observing Switzerland -- wide, strong and stable country-level middle class.

Last time Switzerland attempted something like this (~10y ago), it got burnt, hard (lost a lot of EU related projects and academic financing). Cutting the economical/market ties with the EU, considering its position and dependencies, is a suicide.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#72

Post by greenavocado »

ceejayoz wrote: post #53
greenavocado wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already pass through Swiss customs when driving in, so it makes virtually no difference to me besides slowing things down at the border potentially.

Schengen covers border controls (i.e. immigration/visits), not customs ones (the stuff you bring with).

When you drive through there is someone standing looking at the line of cars and if they don't like the way you look they point to the side and you have to explain yourself and your cargo. It's like an arbitrary border control right now.

Most of the time I'm waved through.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#73

Post by herbst »

greenavocado wrote: post #39
ceejayoz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how crazy it is to think "Switzerland out of Schengen" isn't. It's a small, landlocked country, surrounded on all sides by Schengen nations, that until recently delegated air defense to the EU outside of their air force's office hours . https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis...

When the neighboring countries become a threat again, they will place high explosives back inside the bridges and mountain passes.

Not sure if they actually removed it in all the places, except that one bridge by Basel everyone know about.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#74

Post by JumpCrisscross »

FabCH wrote: post #20
amtamt wrote: post #2

This seems a much more rational approach than pure political agenda driven fear mongering campaigns against immigrants.

This is about Swiss - EU relations. Everyone understands that a yes vote means the Swiss equivalent of „exiting the EU“. All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU. This _is_ pure political agenda driven campaign using imm…

> All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU

Why does it need to be? Would freedom of permanent movement still be something Europeans would vote for today? Will the EU really hold hard on this line with Switzerland? (And does it make political sense to?)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#75

Post by ceejayoz »

jrflowers wrote: post #40
fractallyte wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society. Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their ow…

If you increased Switzerland’s population density by 50% they’d be in a crowded hellhole like (checks notes) Belgium

There are significant differences in terrain that make that comparison a bit tougher.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#76

Post by herbst »

greenavocado wrote: post #72
ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schengen covers border controls (i.e. immigration/visits), not customs ones (the stuff you bring with).

When you drive through there is someone standing looking at the line of cars and if they don't like the way you look they point to the side and you have to explain yourself and your cargo. It's like an arbitrary border control right now. Most of the time I'm waved through.

To be fair there is the same thing between Austria and Germany for example. Except it's more strict there even.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#77

Post by ceejayoz »

greenavocado wrote: post #72
ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schengen covers border controls (i.e. immigration/visits), not customs ones (the stuff you bring with).

When you drive through there is someone standing looking at the line of cars and if they don't like the way you look they point to the side and you have to explain yourself and your cargo. It's like an arbitrary border control right now. Most of the time I'm waved through.

Yes, I'm aware of the current state of things.

This is a proposal to change that state to something far stricter in this regard.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#78

Post by lukan »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #37
lukan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. Are there any difference in the consequences for the immigrants, if they are kicked out because of arbitrary population cap, instead of anti-migration laws?

As far as I understand, action begins when the population hits 9.5M, so likely no-one gets kicked out, but fewer new visas will be approved, etc.

I am pretty sure there are many people living in swiss with temporary visa's and those will then be de facto kicked out, if they do not get their permissions extended.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#79

Post by tonfa »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44
tonfa wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is only about the Schengen, Switzerland is not a part of the EU Not really, the bilateral are a package and the EU doesn't want CH to pick and chose. If freedom of movement stops, a whole lot of thing also stop. It happened the last time SVP got something similar voted on (introduction of quota for foreign immigration), on a smaller scale (erasmus and horizon which are the higher ed and academic research colla…

> the bilateral are a package and the EU doesn't want CH to pick and chose It really depends who is in power where when and if the 10mm limit is crossed. If there is a conservative in Paris or Berlin, chances are Switzerland can simply abrogate Schengen.

Unlike UK, the impact to the EU is minimum and Switzerland doesn't have leverage (if the EU still stands).

Of course if you have EU dismantlers in power anyway in FR/DE, they'll just be happy to sabotage.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#80

Post by Argonaut998 »

cynicalsecurity wrote: post #64

Leaving the EU or ending free movement with EU countries leads to a significant increase in immigration from the third world, as Brexit showed.

The Swiss ruling class don’t have as much disdain for their populace. It will only end up that way if the Swiss people will it.

A lot of the UK’s problems were a result of the EU being vindictive as well. The EU won’t act vindictively because they aren’t in the EU.

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