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My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

acdw.net

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Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#71

Post by tmpz22 »

HiPhish wrote: post #3

> I am now generating this website with Clojure As everyone knows, you are not a true lisper until you have written your own static site generator. It gave me such a great high with how easy it was to add my own "templating engine" on top, implemented all using macros. The downside is that the crash came hard; there is so much more to a good static site generator such as optimizing the output, supporting scoped CSS,…

Yeah integrating NPM is the big one, then you’re whole day converts to recovering from breaches

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#72

Post by thaumasiotes »

lgrapenthin wrote: post #61
pdimitar wrote: post #6

With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death. I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I…

Clojure is about its rigorous and pragmatic "immutability first" paradigm that you simply don't get from other PLs. LISP is much more than just a runtime syntax, such as its distinct evaluation model and metalinguistic core. The JVM was chosen for Clojure because of its reach and vast ecosystem. People have ported Clojure to other runtimes, even Beam (Clojerl), where it enjoys decent success, too.

You don't think Erlang has an "immutability first" paradigm?

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#73

Post by beders »

pdimitar wrote: post #6

With respect, this topic in particular has been beaten to death. I too liked Clojure when I tried it some years ago (agreed on the composition and data structures; both are _great_). But the real value-add is in the runtime, not the syntax. Java has a solid runtime but it's not yet as good as Erlang's, maybe even not up to the standards of Golang -- I am talking concurrency / parallelism here (for memory management I…

Good thing you have a variety of those nowadays. Clojure runs in the browser, Node.js, cross-compiles to Dart, works stand-alone via babashka and has a brand new C++ interfacing implementation in Jank.

The ergonomics of using a proper REPL and interactive programming is hard to beat.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#74

Post by Barrin92 »

pdimitar wrote: post #46
raspasov wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can the Erlang / Golang runtimes do that the JVM can’t?

Thousands of share-nothing actors (fibers / green-threads) with first-class support for communication between them, for a start. Erlang/Elixir -- immutability as well.

>share-nothing actors

although this is a deliberate choice rather than some accidental defect. Clojure went with STM as its concurrency model, if you're not buying into that and you want an Actor-centric language it's not the right choice to begin with.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#75

Post by acdw »

HiPhish wrote: post #3

> I am now generating this website with Clojure As everyone knows, you are not a true lisper until you have written your own static site generator. It gave me such a great high with how easy it was to add my own "templating engine" on top, implemented all using macros. The downside is that the crash came hard; there is so much more to a good static site generator such as optimizing the output, supporting scoped CSS,…

Oh I've written an SSG in multiple variations of lisp, as well as sh, make, and most other languages I toy around with. It's been a good "kick the tires" project but I think I need a new one.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#76

Post by acdw »

weavejester wrote: post #64
Boxxed wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those differences are not due to the syntax, they're due to much deeper things like the differing type system.

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly there are differences other than syntax, but that doesn't mean syntax is irrelevant. For instance, would Clojure programmers use maps as much if there was no syntax for map literals? Syntax determines what parts of a language are within easy reach, and therefore affects how programmers use the language. Tools that a syntax make easy are used often; tools that syntax makes hard are used…

This is very much what I meant in the post (hi, I'm the author :P)! CL has maps, but they're a pain to use - not just because of the syntax, but because of the relative dearth of standard library functions to work with them compared to say, lists or even vectors.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#77

Post by tartoran »

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Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#78

Post by whaleofatw2022 »

lgrapenthin wrote: post #65
pdimitar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of share-nothing actors (fibers / green-threads) with first-class support for communication between them, for a start. Erlang/Elixir -- immutability as well.

"As a rule of thumb, if your application never has 10,000 virtual threads or more, it is unlikely to benefit from virtual threads." https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/21/core/virtual-threa...

BEAM threads are kinda magicsauce tho, instructions have a cost and after a certain cost total (quantums) the scheduler can divert to another virt thread to guarantee forward progress. Also the immutability rules etc make it easier to optimize this switching.

Re: My thoughts after using Clojure for about a month

#79

Post by acdw »

meken wrote: post #4

> I do wish there were an easier way to move in the ]}]})))}-ness of block ends though. I’m not quite sure what this means. How is it different/worse than all parens..? fyi I use paredit and just hit ) and it moves me past any kind of paren/bracket. But even without that you can just hit left and right..?

I use Emacs's built-in structural editing bindings, which doesn't have the auto-move-past any kind of paren/bracket thing. Maybe I could add that in.

But I was talking about like, when refactoring, I'll maybe change something from a list to a vector, and I have to change the delimiters at front and back. Or, where electric-pair does do the move-past-all-parens thing when I just spam ), it doesn't do that with ]}]}]]}}]})).

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