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Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

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Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#71

Post by bigballsbjorn »

bushwart wrote: post #61
bigballsbjorn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

almost always the case especially in germany where you are already incentivised with super low income taxes, free kindergarten and a shit load of other payments from the goverment. its basically impossible to be poor enough not to afford children unless you are doing it intentionally.

I wasn't aware that Germany had super low income taxes. It is certainly possible to game the welfare system and many people do, but if you want a decent standard of living then you need to be employed.

if you marry you basically half your income tax burden if your partner is not employed. there are also child support payments from the government of several hundred € per month that you get as well as free kindergarten, schooling and higher ed. if you are poor you get money from the state until you hit a minimum income threshhold which together with all the other payments is more than enough to have 2 children.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#72

Post by qurren »

saalweachter wrote: post #67
qurren wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't. And yes, kids cost that much. I'm a senior level software engineer in the bay area. I don't have kids. I don't think I can afford them. I'm tired of people telling me I can afford them. The world works differently today. In the 1980's, if you had a stable job that let you leave at 5pm, y…

> If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't. Where does the money come from?

I really don't fucking know. That's not my problem. Either increase my salary by $500K for a couple years, or stop taxing me to death (state taxes, federal taxes, sales taxes, indirectly paying property taxes via rent, taxes disguised as car registrations, tariffs, so many goddamn taxes I don't have any money left to save), stop starting wars elsewhere, stop squandering money, anything.

It's not my problem, really. I'm very happy childless. Unless that money materializes, I can't afford kids.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#73

Post by azan_ »

jnovek wrote: post #59
outside2344 wrote: post #21

So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids? Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

Now sure how things are in Europe where there is a bigger social safety net, but in the US, 36% of adults under 50 describe putting off having kids due to financial reasons. https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/07/29/fewer-adults-ha...

Asking people why they don’t have children is worthless. We should look at revealed preferences, not stated.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#74

Post by surgical_fire »

matchbok3 wrote: post #39

This is a challenging topic to discuss because (rightly) it's very personal. Sadly the fact of the matter is this: we need more children and young people to keep society functioning (and continually improve our quality of life). There is no other known way. So unfortunately the "free rider" problem needs to be addressed somehow. Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are g…

I am sure countries will do everything to incentivise the population to have more children.

Except, of course, reduce income inequality, address housing shortages, that sort of thing.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#75

Post by jnovek »

ahtihn wrote: post #34
outside2344 wrote: post #21

So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids? Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

> Many people can't afford to have kids Wrong. Poor people have 0 problems having kids. People can afford kids, they don't want to compromise on lifestyle.

You’re making a value statement in a discussion about factual information. Regardless of whether you think avoiding children for economic reasons is good or bad, it’s the leading reason cited by people who choose to delay having children. Regardless of whether it’s perception or real, that is the problem the needs to be solved if you want people to have kids.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#76

Post by azan_ »

flextheruler wrote: post #65
ahtihn wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people can't afford to have kids Wrong. Poor people have 0 problems having kids. People can afford kids, they don't want to compromise on lifestyle.

Then why are birth rates falling across all income levels in all countries? Please take the time to research your position. "This perception, however, is false. In most human societies, poverty does not predict higher fertility, and well-to-do families often have the highest fertility. When families in America have more money, they tend to have more children. The stereotype of fertility being skewed towards low-incom…

> Then why are birth rates falling across all income levels in all countries? Please take the time to research your position.

Well yeah, if they are falling across all income levels then not being able to afford children can’t be the reason.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#77

Post by wadim »

mc32 wrote: post #37
wadim wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should people with disabled children pay even more, since they not only fail to produce future taxpayers, but are also a huge burden on the social system? What if your children die before even paying a single cent into the system? People with jobs/hobbies with a high risk of being taken out of the workforce? People with genetic diseases? Or just go straight to the root of the issue: anyone above 60, who can't even dr…

There’s a difference between childless by choice and childlessness because of natural infertility, etc. presumably the parents didn’t choose their children to be burdens and so we’d chalk that up to statistical probability.

How do you know they didn't? Some people don't want to screen for birth defects or check for compatibility between themselves. They don't do all preventative measures, don't use gene-editing therapies or do harmful things like drinking and smoking while being pregnant.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#78

Post by SkiFire13 »

necro wrote: post #33
outside2344 wrote: post #21

So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids? Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

I think the thinking is that if you had kids you created future cows for the tax plantation so you contributed more to the country.

But I'm paying taxes for my pension, and my kids will pay taxes for theirs.

I know that the economics don't actually work like this, but this is the social contract.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#79

Post by timedude »

necro wrote: post #33
outside2344 wrote: post #21

So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids? Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

I think the thinking is that if you had kids you created future cows for the tax plantation so you contributed more to the country.

Yep, gotta keep breeding more little tax slaves to keep the plantation operational.

Re: Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

#80

Post by hephaes7us »

saalweachter wrote: post #67
qurren wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't. And yes, kids cost that much. I'm a senior level software engineer in the bay area. I don't have kids. I don't think I can afford them. I'm tired of people telling me I can afford them. The world works differently today. In the 1980's, if you had a stable job that let you leave at 5pm, y…

> If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't. Where does the money come from?

Same place it always does, just print it. Of course, that still effectively penalizes those who don't want children, but the penalty is less legible to the public so there are fewer objections.
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