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Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

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Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#71

Post by warkdarrior »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #57
dylan604 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending Cloudflare, but what is a better solution? If small websites can just be DDOS'd out of existence because some group thinks it'll be funny, what protections do they have? It takes too much equipment and know-how to stop an attack for people to be able to survive online. The next thing you'll hear about is a monthly service fee to the hackers as a protection racket just like the mob.

The better solution to blocking entire continents is probably doing nothing. For DDoS resistance... Well I can imagine a world where a tech in the same area as IPFS or freenet gives backup access to websites that are overloaded.

> For DDoS resistance... Well I can imagine a world where a tech in the same area as IPFS or freenet gives backup access to websites that are overloaded.

As a small website owner, I can use Cloudflare or I can wait for this imagined tech.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#72

Post by edmundsauto »

nixgeek wrote: post #51
thewebguyd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer went through a similar process, not for a data center but for a large recycling yard/center. We had to buy the land first, and it was basically unproductive for 2.5 years of mostly waiting for permits, and it was already zoned industrial so no zoning changes were needed. The whole project was several million in expenses before even making a dollar. We aren't huge either, the permitting was not supposed to…

It’s unusual to buy the land and take a gamble on its utility, at least whenever datacenter construction is involved. Purchasing parties are risk averse to this exact scenario and work hard to craft contracts that reduce risk. Often the choices are — 1. Buy land at $/acre that reflects very little premium, based on a short feasibility study, but without any ultimate contingency that permitting will occur. This is you…

The second option also incentivizes the seller, who is often a local real estate magnate, to pressure local officials to issue the permits.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#73

Post by pathartl »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #39

Notably, this location is not far from where the Foxconn facility was going to be installed (the "eighth wonder of the world", 10k+ jobs, yada yada). After that debacle, I can imagine local residents are deeply skeptical of new big development projects.

It's about 15 miles north. Microsoft is already building a data center on some of the land that Foxconn didn't use

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#74

Post by SoftTalker »

nixgeek wrote: post #69
SoftTalker wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of jobs during construction. There are very few jobs during operation. Mostly site security and a few tech support staff. There will be some steady work for maintenance contractors, but that's much less than the initial construction.

I mean, you’re right, but when the alternative is all that investment and those construction jobs AND the post-commissioning operational jobs go to a different community and a different economy, … What would you prefer? To me, local communities tend to benefit in multiple different ways during and after these projects, poorer communities become richer, communities with little opportunity now have more opportunity. I’…

But what often happens is that the company is granted a ten year tax abatement in exchange for the jobs, the jobs end up being fewer than promised, and then in ten years the company closes the site and now the community has an empty industrial brownfield that was built for one thing and can't be easily repurposed.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#75

Post by r_lee »

thewebguyd wrote: post #46
trollbridge wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us would like to keep our “infinite” water resources which actually aren’t infinite. I live beneath two transmission lines (overlapping, I guess, but not intersecting) and would prefer no data centre built here. Why? Because it will provide me no benefit whatsoever, reduce my property value, and worsen my quality of life due to things like light pollution and noise. If data centre operators would fix these th…

> provide multi gigabit fibre Internet to everyone nearby. Kind of a cool idea, actually. These data centers could turn the towns where they build into startup incubators. Offer free high speed internet and heavily subsidized compute to residents in exchange for building there. At least gives back economically somewhat, as a data center itself doesn't provide much in return.

how exactly is high speed fiber + subsidized compute a recipe for making startups?

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#76

Post by dylan604 »

sph wrote: post #68
dylan604 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending Cloudflare, but what is a better solution? If small websites can just be DDOS'd out of existence because some group thinks it'll be funny, what protections do they have? It takes too much equipment and know-how to stop an attack for people to be able to survive online. The next thing you'll hear about is a monthly service fee to the hackers as a protection racket just like the mob.

How many small websites served by Cloudflare risk being DDOS'd? How many small website owners would incur serious loss of livelihood if they are DDOS'd for a few days? Is DDOS risk so important that the web needs a protection racket? > If small websites can just be DDOS'd out of existence DDOS doesn't destroy websites. It just makes them unreachable until the disgruntled person decides it's been running long enough.…

> Please stop exaggerating a very real problem only a few entities on the web have; what you are perpetuating is FUD, which enables companies like Cloudflare to kill the web.

I'm not exaggerating, I'm just playing what if. That's a game where you think of random things that could go wrong, and then deciding if it is worth the expense. Just because maybe you can't think of things of varying plausibility does not make me exaggerating. We already see ransomware working from the hacker's perspective. There's no reason to think that greed will not come into play. If I can think of it, there's no reason to think that hackers are not also considering various ways to expand on ransomware as a service

>> The next thing you'll hear about is a monthly service fee to the hackers as a protection racket

> How do you not even see the irony of this?

How do you not? If every hacking group can come along and extort any site they choose to pay them a protection fee, there's no way websites will accept any of this. Compare that to paying a single legit service protecting against all of those hacking groups. Can't imagine why people would be willing to do that.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#77

Post by mindslight »

thewebguyd wrote: post #49
mindslight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe everyone in this village already has their own local AI rig. From a technical perspective, data centers aren't providing public goods - rather they're more like attractive nuisances that foster centralized control.

Mentioned earlier in the thread, but maybe these data centers should start providing public goods to the towns/counties in which they build? Free high speed internet, heavily subsidized compute, maybe partner with local colleges to offer labs & internships, etc. There's no reason they can't be economic accelerators for the towns they are in.

I agree it would help their image, but this all sounds like more corporate centralization to me. I've got a functioning electric coop that provides gigabit internet for a flat fee every month. I think they're even doing trial runs of 10Gb, but I haven't looked into it because I simply don't need it. Internet access can be a solved problem these days, where there is the political will. And if anything local colleges should be offering compute resources to the larger community, not themselves relying on scraps of generosity from commercial buildouts.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#78

Post by hylaride »

cbdevidal wrote: post #45
thewebguyd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer went through a similar process, not for a data center but for a large recycling yard/center. We had to buy the land first, and it was basically unproductive for 2.5 years of mostly waiting for permits, and it was already zoned industrial so no zoning changes were needed. The whole project was several million in expenses before even making a dollar. We aren't huge either, the permitting was not supposed to…

Fun fact: Large businesses are often tapped to write the laws intended to target large businesses. The process is called “model legislation.” Fox and henhouse.

It's also called "regulatory capture" and it's been around in some form (implicitly or explicitly) since there's been laws in existence.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#79

Post by theflyinghorse »

marticode wrote: post #2

Well my IP (regular plain residential Asian ISP) is blocked on this site. Zealous Cloudflare-blocking is breaking the web. (also thanks for the useful message telling me to "contact the website owner... while blocking me from the website where the contact info should be)

I don't understand why cloudflare is loved by tech people. They ARE breaking the web.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#80

Post by therein »

dylan604 wrote: post #76
sph wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many small websites served by Cloudflare risk being DDOS'd? How many small website owners would incur serious loss of livelihood if they are DDOS'd for a few days? Is DDOS risk so important that the web needs a protection racket? > If small websites can just be DDOS'd out of existence DDOS doesn't destroy websites. It just makes them unreachable until the disgruntled person decides it's been running long enough.…

> Please stop exaggerating a very real problem only a few entities on the web have; what you are perpetuating is FUD, which enables companies like Cloudflare to kill the web. I'm not exaggerating, I'm just playing what if. That's a game where you think of random things that could go wrong, and then deciding if it is worth the expense. Just because maybe you can't think of things of varying plausibility does not make…

This is the same mindset that wants to make it illegal to sell kitchen knives with sharp tips.
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