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Airport Security Is Killing Us

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Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#71

Post by drzaiusapelord »

mkr-hn wrote: post #59
aneth4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Then don't fucking fly. Seriously, you guys make it sound the TSA breaks into your homes and strips you.

Yes, I disagree with a lot of their policies but this "Ron Paul" attitude of "the federal government actually has no power if you listen to my absurd interpretation of the constitution" isn't helping either. Its making my legitimate grievances sound lumped in with your extremist interpretations.

You can have sane security if you want it. The Europeans and others do it just fine. Its not illegal to search people or xray their luggage when they're coming on a plane. Deal with it. I'm getting sick of the weekly TSA hatefests. If site just a smaller reddit now? TSA has nothing to do with ycombinator or startups.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#72

Post by Devilboy »

seiji wrote: post #4

What is the answer though? Can you imagine a politician running under a "massively downsize the TSA" banner? Would any existing Washington elected official take up the cause? They can't even repeal the comically silly shoe removal procedure (unless you're under 12 or over 75, because no terr'ist would ever foot kerplode those demographic stereotypes).

Privatise the TSA and have each airport pay for their own security. It will disappear like fog before the sun.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#73

Post by sneak »

philwelch wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/20/nation/la-na-terror-...

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#74

Post by sageikosa »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #3

"The attention paid to terrorism in the U.S. is considerably out of proportion to the relative threat it presents." I agree 100%! The formation of this organization was reactionary policy making at its worst. The TSA is nothing more then a works program for people who are barely qualified to do anything.

Yay! Terrorists have made America a less free place. Sort of makes you wonder who's winning this "war"...

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#75

Post by jpxxx »

tptacek wrote: post #53
jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

I'm very specifically talking about custody searches, not pat-downs or "enhanced pat-downs" (an imaginary term created by the TSA's marketing team).

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no Supreme court ruling on the constitutionality of any of these techniques in the context of airport security. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

The most relevant ruling I know of was from a half century ago and it wasn't the Supreme Court talking. United States v. Edwards, 498 F.2d 496, 500 (2d Cir.1974)

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#76

Post by epoxyhockey »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #7
joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

> I understand the situation is different if you really want your carry-on bag to stow above you. Or in the cabin. If you're the last to board, there's a very real possibility that they may have to gate-check your bag, which adds additional wait time at the end of your journey at best, and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst.

and your bag arriving in Minnesota while you're touching down in Dallas at worst

Is this even possible when gate checking? They literally walk your bag down the stairs at the end of the gate and place it into the plane cargo hold. EDIT: At the end of the flight, your bag is walked up the stairs back into the jetway.

I personally love the gate check loophole. If you intentionally wait to board last, you get a free bag check.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#77

Post by mkr-hn »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #71
mkr-hn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Then don't fucking fly. Seriously, you guys make it sound the TSA breaks into your homes and strips you. Yes, I disagree with a lot of their policies but this "Ron Paul" attitude of "the federal government actually has no power if you listen to my absurd interpretation of the constitution" isn't helping either. Its making my legitimate grievances sound lumped in with your extremist interpretations. You can have sane…

Who said anything about Ron Paul?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#78

Post by michaelfeathers »

philwelch wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

If someone feels that they can tell me what I consent to, they do not understand the meaning of the word consent.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#79

Post by [deleted] »

grecy wrote: post #64
tadfisher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison. Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about th…

[deleted]

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#80

Post by gsnedders »

tokenadult wrote: post #24

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

Why do you assume that all terrorists live in places with caves and goats? The CIRA, RIRA, Irrintzi, and many other such organizations are still active.

Assuming the big risk of terrorism is Islamic extremism (and originating from the Middle East) is a naïve, American-centric view: plenty of us live our lives more threatened by local separatist groups than by Islamic extremism. The big risk in the UK today is still Irish separatist groups, likewise in the Basque country.

Ignoring all that: I still don't think attacking terrorists relentlessly is ever beneficial. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, as the saying goes: they are driven not to destroy, but to get their aims. The IRA were never going to be defeated by force: by killing the nationalist freedom fighters you inherently radicalized more, and the same is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq to an even bigger degree. To many, it's not a case of evil infidels attacking, but rather the evil foreign aggressor killing their friends and family — if a foreign country attacked yours, claiming to rid you of evil and imposing their morals on you, would you stand by as they killed people you knew, under the promise of a better land? This is how the coalition forces are seen by many, especially in Iraq.

Defeating terrorism by force is like defeating the Hydra by force: everyone you kill radicalizes two more.

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