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Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

cyber.netsecops.io

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Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#71

Post by hirvi74 »

Groxx wrote: post #4
slowmover wrote: post #2

> The victim is prompted to enable the "Installed community plugins" synchronization feature. Obsidian has the proper protections in place to prevent this type of attack, and the victims are being convinced to ignore them. This is just a successful social engineering event. I hate to see Obsidian dragged down by this headline, since this attack is not exploiting a vulnerability in it or its plugin system.

Ehm. No? https://obsidian.md/help/plugin-security#Plugin+capabilities > Due to technical limitations, Obsidian cannot reliably restrict plugins to specific permissions or access levels. This means that plugins will inherit Obsidian's access levels. As a result, consider the following examples of what community plugins can do: Community plugins can access files on your computer. Community plugins can connect to intern…

Seems like the same risks of downloading plugins/packages for various text editors.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#72

Post by hackermanai »

kepano wrote: post #43

Obsidian CEO here. There is a major update coming soon for plugin security. I think it will address many of the concerns people have raised in this thread. It's a hard problem but we are working on it. That said, the headline is misleading. This article is about a social engineering attack that requires the user to actively reject multiple safety warnings in Obsidian. As far as I know this is a proof of concept, I ha…

> actively reject multiple safety warnings

Is this like a popup? which most people actively accept without blinking

I think plugin/extensions should be a bit harder to run by default. I get the user friction from extra hurdles before using their plugins etc., but I don't think there is an actually safe way to execute arbitrary code, unaudited, without sandboxing, or other restrictions.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#73

Post by cromka »

stingraycharles wrote: post #63
ibash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol we told you plugins were insecure years ago. I distinctly remember getting flamed in your discord because I said that they had full disk access. Too little too late.

These types of problems usually only get fixed when it’s too late.

"Sorry we got caught" reactiveness.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#74

Post by jesse_dot_id »

kepano wrote: post #43

Obsidian CEO here. There is a major update coming soon for plugin security. I think it will address many of the concerns people have raised in this thread. It's a hard problem but we are working on it. That said, the headline is misleading. This article is about a social engineering attack that requires the user to actively reject multiple safety warnings in Obsidian. As far as I know this is a proof of concept, I ha…

Your product rules. Thanks.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#75

Post by cromka »

kepano wrote: post #43

Obsidian CEO here. There is a major update coming soon for plugin security. I think it will address many of the concerns people have raised in this thread. It's a hard problem but we are working on it. That said, the headline is misleading. This article is about a social engineering attack that requires the user to actively reject multiple safety warnings in Obsidian. As far as I know this is a proof of concept, I ha…

Since we have your attention here, let me go on an unrelated note and ask whether you could look into Noteplan's workflow and see if you can add some of the required functionalities to enable replication of its workflow (https://help.noteplan.co/article/160-weekly-planning)?

Plugins like Tasks do offer a Query functionality that allows me to list e.g. weekly tasks on my daily template, replicating most of Noteplan's workflow, except Noteplan relies on being able to easily link those tasks into daily template by drag and dropping them, which internally assigns a unique but hidden by default ID in ^129abz notation (https://help.noteplan.co/article/138-synced-blocks). The latter is already supported by Obsidian, it's just not as "clean" and, AFAIK, impossible to get done when drag and dropping.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#76

Post by nothinkjustai »

I think it’s fundamentally wrong to base your plugin architecture on running user code in the same space as the application. The proper way is to evaluate plugin scripts in an interpreter running in the application, where you expose functionality through functions and state exposed to the script runtime. This means you can A) sandbox everything and B) check for things like permissions or even request permissions at runtime. It’s harder if you use a language like JavaScript for the application since you essentially have a runtime inside a runtime, but it’s possible to run something like Lua inside JS. Since I use an actually good language like Rust I have many good options for scripting, like Rhai. Lua is also a good option. Go also has multiple options including a couple good Lua libraries. These libraries tend to have performance comparable to Python which is more than enough for most plugins in most apps.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#77

Post by pilgrim0 »

eviks wrote: post #60

What are the reasons behind the fact that almost all of these plugin systems are so poorly engineered? Is it too much work (ie, there are no good plugin development frameworks that already enable proper isolation/permission capabilities) or "simply" a widespread lack of knowledge of what is needed, so devs learn only after their own system has been abused? Both? Something else?

Web stack plus lack of resources to architect the proper interfaces is my guess. These are software written in high level js frameworks, thus using poor dataflow patterns by default, mostly just following what is actually possible instead of employing intentional design, which would require going down some levels of abstraction and maintaining a custom fork of said frameworks. So they probably just architect plug-ins like you would instantiate a library passing a subset of the context the app uses. Basically the simplest workable thing possible. Although the disclosed hack does not mention any particular “vulnerability”. Plug-ins in obsidian are always in god mode, and the alleged hackers just tricked people in using them. Funny how an RCE waiting to happen behind a few popups is ultimately blamed on users. Shame on the developers.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#78

Post by e28eta »

Groxx wrote: post #4
slowmover wrote: post #2

> The victim is prompted to enable the "Installed community plugins" synchronization feature. Obsidian has the proper protections in place to prevent this type of attack, and the victims are being convinced to ignore them. This is just a successful social engineering event. I hate to see Obsidian dragged down by this headline, since this attack is not exploiting a vulnerability in it or its plugin system.

Ehm. No? https://obsidian.md/help/plugin-security#Plugin+capabilities > Due to technical limitations, Obsidian cannot reliably restrict plugins to specific permissions or access levels. This means that plugins will inherit Obsidian's access levels. As a result, consider the following examples of what community plugins can do: Community plugins can access files on your computer. Community plugins can connect to intern…

I remember reading that page sometime pre-COVID, and being surprised at just how ridiculous it was. It started strong with “The Obsidian team takes security seriously”, but then almost everything else on the page led me to believe they didn’t actually take security very seriously.

I agree with the claim of negligence. I think they were more than happy to reap the benefits of a thriving community plugin ecosystem, and were hoping this page would provide enough CYA when security breaches inevitably occurred.

> TIP: If you're working with sensitive data and wish to install a community plugin, we recommend that you perform an independent security audit on the plugin before using it.

I wonder just how many plugins received a security audit.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#79

Post by pilgrim0 »

kepano wrote: post #43

Obsidian CEO here. There is a major update coming soon for plugin security. I think it will address many of the concerns people have raised in this thread. It's a hard problem but we are working on it. That said, the headline is misleading. This article is about a social engineering attack that requires the user to actively reject multiple safety warnings in Obsidian. As far as I know this is a proof of concept, I ha…

Get real, kepano. You’re overestimating the consciousness of most casual users. Having godmode, RCE-capable plug-ins behind few safety warnings that most people will happily ignore to get shit done is not good engineering. I understand the constraints. In your shoes I would at minimum make a different version of the app in which you could allow these plug-ins and not put them under trivial banners within the canonical version of the app. You say you have banners, but these sit in the natural flow of the user journey, the options are clearly available and these banners are merely to exempt you from any liability, not to protect the users.

Re: Obsidian plugin was abused to deploy a remote access trojan

#80

Post by no-name-here »

moron4hire wrote: post #12
Groxx wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehm. No? https://obsidian.md/help/plugin-security#Plugin+capabilities > Due to technical limitations, Obsidian cannot reliably restrict plugins to specific permissions or access levels. This means that plugins will inherit Obsidian's access levels. As a result, consider the following examples of what community plugins can do: Community plugins can access files on your computer. Community plugins can connect to intern…

A program one runs on one's computer can and should be able to do computer things. The alternative road you're advocating for ends in hardware attestation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48086190

There are in-between models, such as:

* Android's permissions model where the user must approve specific potentially undesirable classes of actions (separate from the 24H delay, etc controversy)

* Optional sandboxing

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