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BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

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Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#71
post #66
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't fathom why racial minorities would not feel welcome at such a conference. Do they think people are going to be surprised that they are in attendance, disapprove of them being there, or look down on them? It's a programming conference, not a meeting of the KKK.

Do they think people are going to … look down on them? Yes that's what happens now. Dell conference: comeidan brought on by Dell "The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2174903/dell-issues... CouchDB "Perform like a porn star" http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk Tech company organises a code jam. "Perks: Women" http://readwrit…

If you try hard enough you can be offended by anything.

Dell comedian? Comedians thrive on controversial material. Sounds to me like a tongue-in-cheek observational joke that is just as offensive to men as it is to women. "Congratulations, the IT industry is a sausage-fest, just the way you want it to be, right?"

CouchDB? Can't find a copy of the original presentation, but what's wrong with allusions to pornography? There are plenty of male porn stars, and plenty of pornography that degrades men?

Perks: Women? Again, an observation on the male dominance of the industry. Similar to the Dell comedian, this is much a joke aimed at men as it is at women; male geeks need to attend a code jam to come into contact with women, etc.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#72
Ehh... I thought that 'diversity' means we give everyone equal opportunities and treat them the same way. Now it seems it means 'we need to have this particular distribution of genders and races'. Utter stupidity, from one extreme straight to the other :( Isn't it really obvious that different topics inherently attract different audiences, and as long as we give everyone equal chances to participate we are okay?

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, most modern academic work on racism goes by his latter definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological

That page includes a random sampling of definitions used by some sociologists. One of the definitions explicitly states that racism can only be committed by white people. When you get to the point where such a definition makes sense, you are outside of a reasonable discourse. Racism ceases to have any meaning as a term. The other definitions are not redefinitions of racism, but appropriations of the more general defi…

> When you get to the point where such a definition makes sense, you are outside of a reasonable discourse. Racism ceases to have any meaning as a term.

A definition that makes sense and has no meaning. I don't know about racism, but you certainly seem to have lost sight of what "meaning" means.

I've never had any trouble understanding this definition of racism. When I was young and stupid, I thought myself extremely clever for seeing instances of reverse racism, but this was because I understood nothing about racism except that MLK Jr. gave this nice speech a long time ago and now bad things no longer happened. I thought it was this magical thing where there were black people and there were white people and I was yellow except not really so it was kinda weird and I didn't understand why the red people didn't seem very red.

Then I grew up and started understanding how power moves and manifests. It's very fuzzy. You don't see mathematical equations about how the election of the POTUS changes opinion in the Middle East, because we haven't figured out how to model that. Our understanding of power is extremely weak, compared to something like how many atoms of hydrogen are found in a molecule of water. To make this extremely stark, we don't understand power. We have a feel. An intuitive notion. That is all we have.

We do not have explicit forms of racial discrimination to any significant degree. But we do still have significant power imbalances that map suspiciously well to racial divides. These power imbalances are virtually impossible to quantify, because we have no idea how to do it, but we can infer them from statistical trends. We've chosen to call this racism.

That's language drift for you. There are reasons not to call it racism. Apologists, such as yourself, have enumerated a good number of them for us. But there are also good reasons to call it racism. First among these is that we do not need the more generic definition any longer. English speakers generally have difficulty finding instances of chattel slavery or explicit segregation laws. In both of these cases, we have more specific terms anyways. Second is that it signals the correct emotional reaction. Most people are offended when called a racist, because they've been trained to understand it is a bad thing to be. Used properly, it forms a foundation to change behavior. (And before you say that it is sometimes used improperly, this would be true of a different term as well; but a different term would not have the same, useful emotional charge.) Third is that the issue remains one of "dividing people into groups called races which contain people with identifiably similar traits". The generic definition still actually applies, but it does so more weakly.

I'm sure you take issue with all of these, but really? The definition could be improved. That doesn't make it meaningless, as demonstrated by the many people who use it in that capacity without a problem. It does make it difficult, as demonstrated by the many people who seem incapable of understanding it.

(Also, loleconomics.)

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#74
post #65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I be aware of everybody's likes and dislikes? I'm just living my own life and that's it. Are we going to call meat "animal-sourced food" next? Just to let vegetarians know we're aware of them...

Why should I be aware of everybody's likes and dislikes? Because empathy towards your fellow human beings is a virtue and not giving two flying fucks about anyone except number one is not very nice. You may choose to live your life that way, but plenty of people in the world actually care about people aside from themselves. Are we going to call meat "animal-sourced food" next? Apples and Oranges. A more apt analogy i…

I don't think empathy and acknowledging is the same as going out of my way to make sure any possible minority is pleased if I accidentally meet them on my way.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#75
post #72

Ehh... I thought that 'diversity' means we give everyone equal opportunities and treat them the same way. Now it seems it means 'we need to have this particular distribution of genders and races'. Utter stupidity, from one extreme straight to the other :( Isn't it really obvious that different topics inherently attract different audiences, and as long as we give everyone equal chances to participate we are okay?

> I thought that 'diversity' means we give everyone equal opportunities and treat them the same way.

No, that's survival of the fittest. Giving everyone equal opportunity and being blind to everything else is how nature does it. It's called evolution.

"Diversity" is a code word for increasing the number of participants over what natural forces would allow for, if the best and the brightest were to be the only selection criterion.

Having said that, there is a point to diversity -- it hopes to address prejudicial forces that prevent everyone from having an equal opportunity to show what they're made of.

But "diversity" means exactly the opposite of what you seem to think. The point of diversity is to maximize variety, not competence. But it can often lead to a good outcome.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#76
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions This is not my definition, there are loads of people with this definition. Rational discussion can only occur once terms have been agreed and defined Agreed, that's why I made this point. Too often people are only aware of the first definition.

Again, your 'second definition' isn't diametrically opposed to the first, it includes the first. Defining 'racist actions' presupposes a definition race and in turn racism that you can't just toss aside. Defining racism as a systemic disadvantaging of certain races takes as a given the definition of racism as -- you guessed it -- the dividing of people into races and ascribing them characteristics en masse.

Yes, one is a subset of the other, but they are not the same. But ascribing characteristics to one race is not racism. Just like both are subsets of "a human behaviour", which is not racist.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#77
post #74
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I be aware of everybody's likes and dislikes? Because empathy towards your fellow human beings is a virtue and not giving two flying fucks about anyone except number one is not very nice. You may choose to live your life that way, but plenty of people in the world actually care about people aside from themselves. Are we going to call meat "animal-sourced food" next? Apples and Oranges. A more apt analogy i…

I don't think empathy and acknowledging is the same as going out of my way to make sure any possible minority is pleased if I accidentally meet them on my way.

A cursory level of respect for other humans is enough.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#78

Lame. Anti-white racism is still racism. Growing up colored in the US, I encounter anti-white racism all the time among my peers, but never once received racism against my skin color from whites.

How interesting I grew up colored in the US also and experience racism everyday from white people. Please let me know which part of the US you are living in. I would love to live there and not have to worry about people giving me a hard time because of the color of my skin.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#79
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree: it could have happened in many Western countries. The problem with a 'it's political correctness gone mad!' argument is it ignores the context in which those laws were enacted. Racism and sexism were systematic and endemic in the UK during much of the 20th century. You say that "political correctness had taken hold in local government by the early 1980s", but you don't mention that the reason for this was…

> Hate speech and anti-discrimination laws have drastically improved the lives of millions of people in the UK. Cause and effect, dude. This happened in the same time frame in virtually every single developed country on earth with different ways of approaching the issue. Chances are that being more tolerant was simply just an idea whose time had come.

"Chances are that being more tolerant was simply just an idea whose time had come."

Society does not move to a predetermined end, and we will not be "better" off without protections of civil rights. That statement is dangerous because it assumes that there are not forces and persons who wish to regress.

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