Live data from Hacker News

What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

margaretstorey.com

71–80 of 150 posts

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#71
It's all fun and games, but I've yet to see anything of value come out of agentic coding. As in, all the code it produces is such total garbage, I'm not worries about the cognitive debt, I'm worried about the technical debt.

More code is not better. more code, more quickly is worse. Don't delude yourself into thinking you are more productive, you are just digging a deeper hole.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#72
> High-performing teams have always managed technical debt intentionally. As AI is adopted by startups and large companies, the question becomes how teams will manage cognitive debt.

"Technical" and "cognitive" debt aren't really distinct phenomena; the spirit of the original definition of "technical debt" was that it WAS the delta between the system-as-it-is, and the human understanding of how best to solve whatever problem the system was intended to solve [1].

If we accept collapsing them back down to one term, then "managing cognitive debt" is the same thing as "managing technical debt": work to match the system to the human understanding of the problem the system is meant to address. The article calls out "emerging" techniques to do just this:

- More rigorous review practices

- Writing tests that capture intent

- Updating design documents continuously

- Treating prototypes as disposable

To me these are not "emerging," but rather "well-known industry best practices." Though maybe they're not that well known in fact? [EDIT TO ADD] On the other hand, it would make sense that they ARE well known, and that teams therefore reach for these familiar techniques to try and solve this "new" problem.

Putting in my 2c for the closing questions/thoughts in the article:

> How will they shape socio-technical practices and tools to externalize intent and sustain shared understanding?

Honestly? We'll probably end up doing these things more or less the same ways we always have. AI has not actually changed anything fundamental about how an individual encounters the world; there always was, and always will be, and always will have been, WAY more going on that we can fully get our heads around, but it's also always been the case that we can partially get our heads around most any problem space

> How will they use Generative and Agentic AI not only to accelerate code production, but to maintain their collective theory?

I suspect the answer to this one might well be that high-performing teams will have to scrupulously AVOID "accelerating code production" using AI in order to make sure what they are creating actually composes into the system they think they're building. If human understanding is the bottleneck, then the humans will have to produce less crap they need to understand!

[1]: https://wiki.c2.com/?WardExplainsDebtMetaphor, particularly the "Burden" and "Agility" sections.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#73
post #17

Cognitive Debt has existed much earlier before LLMs became mainstream. Technical people got good at their jobs and then was promoted to management. After time they lost their technical abilities but if they are a good manager they kept up to date with the technological landscape and used their engineering thinking to ensure that the people below them worked to their optimum efficiency to achieve the companies goals.…

I'm consistently surprised by how many "software engineers" I've worked with have never read Naur's paper (https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~remzi/Naur.pdf) or not even familiar with this notion before agentic coding. This was always a reality in our discipline whether folks realized it or now.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, agile has been extremely successful. It's the people that claim to "do agile" that invariably don't do it. But software development used to fail most of the time, and it doesn't do that anymore.

What makes you say that it has been extremely successful? And when you say doesn't fail anymore, do you mean it doesn't go over budget and/or changes scope?

Agile cannot go over budget or scope because those are failures of planning. Agile is the methodology that was developed specifically to counteract those problems with planning. Projects that use Agile can go over budget and scope but they never do that because they are using Agile, rather they use Agile because they might do that.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#75
Why must so much gumflapping involve the spew of any words but those which encourage not using the clear problem tool more.

"the question becomes how teams will manage cognitive debt" the question is why it is allowed to occur when it is avoidable. Farcical nonsense. Write the code yourself or be silent.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#76

> the question becomes how teams will manage cognitive debt That’s the neat trick kiddo, they won’t. Across the industry, the messaging is clear: use AI and be more productive. Management is salivating at the idea of getting rid of people and keeping a higher share of profits for themselves. Most ICs I talk to are increasingly expressing the feeling of burnout, fear of losing jobs and resentment that AI is being push…

You can use AI to manage cognitive debt, but it doesn't reflect on the sprint board. Across the board, I still see people loving to over design things that can be much simpler. This isn't much changed because of LLM, LLM just allowed them to create the complicated implementations much faster.

If the default mode is that LLMs generate crap code that you have to fix with even more LLMs, then something is fundamentally wrong.

In terms of over engineering, I wouldn't be surprised if the human tendency for skeuomorphism (combined with an loss of technical skill) will create even weirder code.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so it's called agile when it works, but not when it doesn't, got it!

You gotta understand how to use a tool for it to be effective, yes.

And if a tool is that difficult to use, how can you tell if the problem is in the tool or the user? There's a large industry built around doing training and certifications in agile methodologies now. If a tool is that difficult to get right, maybe it's just not a good tool to begin with.

To be fair, the manifesto and methodology is quite good in theory. But I just have never heard of(or experienced) it working properly and the response is always that it wasn't implemented correctly.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#78
post #52

There are many projects that should not be built agentically. For things that are appropriate to build with agents, I have come to hold the strong opinion that you need to go all-in. If you built it with an agent, then you fix it with an agent, you debug it with an agent, and you change it with an agent. In that case you should not consider yourself the steward of the source code and worry about “cognitive debt”- it’…

Not my experience at all. I’ve been using Claude Code on a large "hand written" project and it’s genuinely excellent at finding bugs and generating new methods or classes.

That said, it still frequently introduces subtle bugs, so I have to review every change carefully.

The real trick is learning when to use it. Some tasks are much faster to do myself, while others are faster with Claude Code.

Re: What I'm Hearing About Cognitive Debt (So Far)

#79
The post makes some good points. As a programmer I love writing code. I know coding is just a tool but I enjoy the act of thinking about a problem, finding a solution and implementing it. It gives me a little dopamine boost.

Ever since LLMs started writing decent code, I started feeling like a part of that joy of code-writing has been taken away.

Using LLMs literally leaves a developer to do (what I find is) the worst part about software development: debugging someone else’s code.

Besides this, everything feels rushed. I am under the impression that I can’t “take my time” to think about a problem anymore. It almost feels wasteful now. I have to “just do it”.

It makes me nostalgic and I feel like I’ve lost something about coding that made me enjoy it.

But it is the reality we live in and I’m adapting to it. What I’m wondering is whether I should adapt or, rather, push back.

That being said: this feels a little like it was written using AI.

Post reply on HN