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Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

chrisbrunet.com

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Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#71

Post by mmooss »

mklyachman wrote: post #6
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #2

I am not arguing against the facts expressed in the piece. This is not an area in which I have any expertise. However, I am a bit uncomfortable with the pithy language used. It's possible (likely, even), that the fired editors deserve the pithiness, but it's still a bit weird to read that kind of prose, in a scientific context.

This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature. God forbid the author home some (admittedly, strong) opinions and speaks negatively about fraudsters.

> This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature.

Professional news is usually written without expressing judgement and minimizing opinion.

> fraudsters

It's an allegation.

The author only hurts themself: My impression is that they don't believet the fundamentals of truth and humanity: they are certainly partially wrong, could be very wrong, will never know the complete truth, and their judgment of others is too flawed to rely on. Also it seems they are acting more on their emotions and less on fact and reason.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#72

Post by mmooss »

idle_zealot wrote: post #9
mananaysiempre wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are few things I’m afraid of more than a man that thinks himself righteous, because there is very little that such a man would be unwilling to do. So it makes sense to be cautious when I find myself feeling like one, or being pulled along by the emotions of another who does.

You're not wrong about the danger posed, but take a step back and consider who this attitude helps. The greatest beneficiaries of a culture in which good faith and civility are unconditionally granted for fear of misguided righteous anger is a paradise for fraudsters and bad faith actors. I think we're seeing that world now.

> consider who this attitude helps

It helps the good people, who do good and influence their society to do the same, and live in a good society. The best societies give the accused the full protection of the law, and give them fair trials. The problematic ones have mob rule.

Much of what you write assumes the OP author and you know what evil is, with certainty. That is the critical and most dangerous flaw.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#73

Post by protocolture »

greenchair wrote: post #48
azan_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is funny because it’s completely opposite - economics has generally great track record and fraudulent results typically do not survive for long. Citation cartels and paper mills exist in all disciplines.

the economists have a terrible record which is why public opinion of them is low. I'd guess equal weight to meterologists forecasting.

Really? I see the whole "Yes the entire body of work, across multiple schools of economic thought, and every examination of the history demonstrates rent controls dont work. But we think this time, perhaps they will work"

to "Once again rent controls have failed" pipeline has been pretty firmly established.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#75

Post by sokoloff »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #68
beambot wrote: post #40

Sayre's Law: Academic Politics Are So Vicious Because the Stakes Are So Small Maybe universities, tenure committees, and funding sources should stop measuring academics by vanity metrics such as H-Index and publication counts. And don't get me started on the tendency toward "minimum publishable units." That said, abusing power as an editor deserves a special place in hell...

Corporate KPI-chasing culture ruins everything. “Publish or perish” has hit such an extreme level. I imagine most academics would gladly not participate in this game if their entire livelihood didn’t depend on it

I think an awful lot of people would rather receive their livelihood without being subject to measurement.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#76

Post by [deleted] »

mmooss wrote: post #71
mklyachman wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature. God forbid the author home some (admittedly, strong) opinions and speaks negatively about fraudsters.

> This is an investigative substack, not a piece of academic literature. Professional news is usually written without expressing judgement and minimizing opinion. > fraudsters It's an allegation. The author only hurts themself: My impression is that they don't believet the fundamentals of truth and humanity: they are certainly partially wrong, could be very wrong, will never know the complete truth, and their judgmen…

[deleted]

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#77

Post by xhkkffbf »

denverllc wrote: post #57
beambot wrote: post #40

Sayre's Law: Academic Politics Are So Vicious Because the Stakes Are So Small Maybe universities, tenure committees, and funding sources should stop measuring academics by vanity metrics such as H-Index and publication counts. And don't get me started on the tendency toward "minimum publishable units." That said, abusing power as an editor deserves a special place in hell...

The stakes are pretty large now. You are judged on the number of publications, positions, citations, etc. It’s not even about philosophical disagreement as much as future career

I've heard that some universities set aside $5-10 million whenever they grant someone tenure. It's a fiscally prudent accounting measure. And it's also a measure of how valuable the contract can be. (Of course one still needs to do some work soooo....)

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#78

Post by ABCLAW »

idle_zealot wrote: post #62
Pay08 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

This isn't the danger with assuming good faith.

It's the danger with not updating your behavior when the balance of probabilities shows that the individual/group/organization you're dealing with is acting in bad faith.

Our modern era has so many megaphones blaring into the void that it's become significantly more difficult to determine which ones are overtly lying. Accordingly, it's far more difficult to establish a consensus about who's operating in bad faith.

Again, the failure point isn't with the assumption of good faith. It's with not recognizing bad faith when it's made manifest.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#79

Post by pstuart »

beambot wrote: post #40

Sayre's Law: Academic Politics Are So Vicious Because the Stakes Are So Small Maybe universities, tenure committees, and funding sources should stop measuring academics by vanity metrics such as H-Index and publication counts. And don't get me started on the tendency toward "minimum publishable units." That said, abusing power as an editor deserves a special place in hell...

Goodhart's Law strikes again.

Re: Third editor fired in Elsevier’s citation cartel crackdown

#80

Post by idle_zealot »

ABCLAW wrote: post #78
idle_zealot wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This isn't the danger with assuming good faith. It's the danger with not updating your behavior when the balance of probabilities shows that the individual/group/organization you're dealing with is acting in bad faith. Our modern era has so many megaphones blaring into the void that it's become significantly more difficult to determine which ones are overtly lying. Accordingly, it's far more difficult to establish a…

I agree, that's why I'm talking about unconditional assumption of good faith. I strongly believe in assuming good faith by default, and also in the importance of updating your priors as new information becomes available.
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