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Move Detroit

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Re: Move Detroit

#71

Post by marcus_holmes »

cal_dent wrote: post #69
marcus_holmes wrote: post #54

As an non-American, looking from the outside, I find Detroit's saga incredibly sad and a little strange. When I was a kid, Detroit was a symbol of US industry and engineering. All those huge muscle cars. That kind of Mad Max Road Warrior attitude (yeah, I know that's Aussie, but that same attitude). Now it's a symbol of US decline, I think. It's strange to me that the USA let this happen, or that it didn't have the p…

The UK did do that to large swathes of Northern England. Changing times comes for everyone in the end

Agreed, and I'm sure at one time the UK was seen as an industrial and mining powerhouse and people raised with that image would be sad at the change. But by the time Thatcher trashed the North that wasn't really true any more. I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though.

Re: Move Detroit

#72

Post by stinkbeetle »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #54

As an non-American, looking from the outside, I find Detroit's saga incredibly sad and a little strange. When I was a kid, Detroit was a symbol of US industry and engineering. All those huge muscle cars. That kind of Mad Max Road Warrior attitude (yeah, I know that's Aussie, but that same attitude). Now it's a symbol of US decline, I think. It's strange to me that the USA let this happen, or that it didn't have the p…

I don't think it would offend, Americans are the first to bemoan what happened to Detroit as far as I have seen. What will probably offend more is the fact that the USA is not really in decline, as much as that has long been the highbrow narrative.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location...

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

It has lost ground in some industries, it has also invested and pioneered in high tech design and manufacturing, aerospace, computers, software, internet, etc. which has kept it strong. And I know GDP doesn't give you much picture, but it gives you something.

Australia is doing well too as a coal/LNG depot and iron ore mine for China, after giving up their manufacturing industry and any pretense at technology. The "Education" export sector has looked good on paper, but the penny is beginning to drop that universities have been allowed to be hollowed out and turned into degree mills chasing short-term profit like some wall street quarterly results whore, and when there is very little investment in science and technology in the country, "higher education" can never be at the forefront. I guess that's good, the world will "always" need iron ore, bauxite, uranium, and coal/gas (until it doesn't). But when it runs out or stops being bought, are we going to be any better off than the Saudi post-oil?

Australia has so little of its own capability that if something serious happened to our maritime trade (I'm not talking about the tiny blip in the Persian Gulf just now, but a serious conflict involving real players), they would all starve to death in the dark, surrounded by vast fields of food and energy.

America has its problems, but it always has something on the go there. There's an energy in the air over there. Like China. People are determined to do something, reminds me of stories of the Australia that died before I was born. Australians aspire to work in a mine or in a worthless government bureaucrat jobs they can't get fired from, and accumulate rental properties. "But it's so 'laid back'", "but we don't have gun crime", "we have government healthcare" does not mean the road it is going down is not a dead end.

Re: Move Detroit

#73

Post by BrandonM »

al_borland wrote: post #55
t-3 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's further north than a small part of Canada, but Michigan is lake effect central, and the Detroit metro is a heat island. It's not usually that bad during the winter, but it does snow.

I’ve lived in Michigan most of my life. I always hear people talk about lake effect snow, but it doesn’t seem that bad. I shoveled maybe 6 or 7 times this past winter and only bothered to pull out the snow blower one or two times. Even when I lived on the west side of the state, it wasn’t that bad. I only remember one time where is snowed about a foot… the roads were cleared and the rest of the winter was pretty unev…

I live just west of Lake Michigan, and what you described would be a high-snow winter here. The lake effect is real. I grew up in the Cleveland area, and I was surprised how much less snow we get in Wisconsin. Longer, colder winters, though.

Re: Move Detroit

#74

Post by lmm »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #71
cal_dent wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK did do that to large swathes of Northern England. Changing times comes for everyone in the end

Agreed, and I'm sure at one time the UK was seen as an industrial and mining powerhouse and people raised with that image would be sad at the change. But by the time Thatcher trashed the North that wasn't really true any more. I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though.

> I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though.

Glasgow went from a prosperous shipbuilding town to the heroin capital of Europe. Sheffield also collapsed fairly dramatically with the loss of the steel industry, though maybe it didn't quite fall so far.

Re: Move Detroit

#75

Post by exidy »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #54

As an non-American, looking from the outside, I find Detroit's saga incredibly sad and a little strange. When I was a kid, Detroit was a symbol of US industry and engineering. All those huge muscle cars. That kind of Mad Max Road Warrior attitude (yeah, I know that's Aussie, but that same attitude). Now it's a symbol of US decline, I think. It's strange to me that the USA let this happen, or that it didn't have the p…

> It would be like the UK allowing Oxford or Cambridge to become a slum, the universities moving away and the old buildings becoming derelict. Or the Sydney Opera House going vacant and letting squatters move in.

Or the Roman Forum going from the centre of life in the world's most powerful empire to cattle field? [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Forum#Medieval

Re: Move Detroit

#76

Post by volemo »

lmm wrote: post #74
marcus_holmes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and I'm sure at one time the UK was seen as an industrial and mining powerhouse and people raised with that image would be sad at the change. But by the time Thatcher trashed the North that wasn't really true any more. I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though.

> I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though. Glasgow went from a prosperous shipbuilding town to the heroin capital of Europe. Sheffield also collapsed fairly dramatically with the loss of the steel industry, though maybe it didn't quite fall so far.

> Sheffield also collapsed fairly dramatically with the loss of the steel industry

Nah, Sheffield is supported by their main export — Doctor Who’s companions. :D

Re: Move Detroit

#77

Post by adi_kurian »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #71
cal_dent wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK did do that to large swathes of Northern England. Changing times comes for everyone in the end

Agreed, and I'm sure at one time the UK was seen as an industrial and mining powerhouse and people raised with that image would be sad at the change. But by the time Thatcher trashed the North that wasn't really true any more. I don't think the UK went from an industrial giant to a desolate wasteland in a single generation like Detroit did. I could be wrong, though.

Grew up in Sunderland and have spent plenty time in the Rust Belt. Sunderland's worse.

Re: Move Detroit

#78

Post by jimt1234 »

pclowes wrote: post #70
marcus_holmes wrote: post #54

As an non-American, looking from the outside, I find Detroit's saga incredibly sad and a little strange. When I was a kid, Detroit was a symbol of US industry and engineering. All those huge muscle cars. That kind of Mad Max Road Warrior attitude (yeah, I know that's Aussie, but that same attitude). Now it's a symbol of US decline, I think. It's strange to me that the USA let this happen, or that it didn't have the p…

I think Detroit is well past its “bottom”. I have visited there every year (briefly) for the past 14yrs and it has some really vibrant and cool aspects now. My anecdotal evidence is backed up by Detroit Metro real estate outpacing the national average significantly over the past 10 years. The people and culture are great too. Also if America is ever going to greatly increase manufacturing, Detroit (and the rust belt…

> I think Detroit is well past its “bottom”.

Agreed. My family's from Detroit. Like so many others, they left in the mid-70s because Detroit had become unfathomably bad - the job market was shit, crime and corruption was out of control, and there was no hope for things turning around. In the mid-80s, there were countless jokes about Detroit, like this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iFxyAA0l0nU

Re: Move Detroit

#79

Post by al_borland »

BrandonM wrote: post #73
al_borland wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve lived in Michigan most of my life. I always hear people talk about lake effect snow, but it doesn’t seem that bad. I shoveled maybe 6 or 7 times this past winter and only bothered to pull out the snow blower one or two times. Even when I lived on the west side of the state, it wasn’t that bad. I only remember one time where is snowed about a foot… the roads were cleared and the rest of the winter was pretty unev…

I live just west of Lake Michigan, and what you described would be a high-snow winter here. The lake effect is real. I grew up in the Cleveland area, and I was surprised how much less snow we get in Wisconsin. Longer, colder winters, though.

I lived in Chicagoland for a few years as well, I didn’t notice much of a difference. I would assume that’s similar to Wisconsin.

Of course, I was in apartments with covered parking and snow removal services the whole time, so I didn’t need to care too much.

I do remember the guys in the Chicago office talking about when they got a foot or so of snow and had to walk to the nearby hotel to spend the night, because it wasn’t safe to drive home. I heard stories like that from people in the Michigan office too, but in my 20 years working I still never ran into it. Just lucky I guess.

Re: Move Detroit

#80

Post by dyauspitr »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #54

As an non-American, looking from the outside, I find Detroit's saga incredibly sad and a little strange. When I was a kid, Detroit was a symbol of US industry and engineering. All those huge muscle cars. That kind of Mad Max Road Warrior attitude (yeah, I know that's Aussie, but that same attitude). Now it's a symbol of US decline, I think. It's strange to me that the USA let this happen, or that it didn't have the p…

In a way it’s nice. You let failing things fail and new things take their place. The problem starts when new things don’t take their place and I hope the current regressive political climate doesn’t get us there.
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