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Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

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Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#71

Post by ranger_danger »

em-bee wrote: post #67
bigbadfeline wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I wrote a program that zipped up the Linux kernel source, unzipped it, and grepped -v for comments it would not then be magically transformed into unattributable public domain software. That's not the case here. A re-implemented piece of software that does not contain meaningful verbatim excerpts from the original is not subject to the copyright of the original.

that is not certain. if you read code and then reimplement it using the original code as reference, the claim has been made that this falls under the copyright of the original because the new code is derived from the old code. unfortunately this particular situation has not yet been tested in court. but clean room implementations are done specifically to avoid the risk reading the original code poses. if this was cle…

What if one reverse engineered the original logic, for example translating the assembly code into a higher level language. They didn't use or look at the original code. Does that still count as "clean room"? What's the legal difference between that and deriving the logic just from observing how the running program acts?

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#72

Post by majorchord »

HappySweeney wrote: post #25
jagged-chisel wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh … the argument will likely be things created by Thing at the behest of Author is owned by the Author. It’ll take a few cases going through the courts, or an Act of Congress to solidify this stuff.

Haven't there already been a few cases, each of which found that mechanically-produced works are not copywritable?

yes https://copyrightalliance.org/current-ai-copyright-cases-par...

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#74

Post by em-bee »

bigbadfeline wrote: post #70
em-bee wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is not certain. if you read code and then reimplement it using the original code as reference, the claim has been made that this falls under the copyright of the original because the new code is derived from the old code. unfortunately this particular situation has not yet been tested in court. but clean room implementations are done specifically to avoid the risk reading the original code poses. if this was cle…

> this is similar to creating an extension to some program There's no such thing as "an extension to some program". A derivative work is a work that contains the original. Using the privileges provided by copyright law, the creator may impose licensing restrictions on how the original work is used - but that's contract law, not copyright. For example the GPL and the AGPL define different sets of use restrictions, non…

a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel.

one can use the same topic for a work of poetry for a similar aesthetic effect and that doesn't infringe other poems

because the new poem does not depend on the original.

the kernel driver is useless without the kernel

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#75

Post by em-bee »

ranger_danger wrote: post #71
em-bee wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is not certain. if you read code and then reimplement it using the original code as reference, the claim has been made that this falls under the copyright of the original because the new code is derived from the old code. unfortunately this particular situation has not yet been tested in court. but clean room implementations are done specifically to avoid the risk reading the original code poses. if this was cle…

What if one reverse engineered the original logic, for example translating the assembly code into a higher level language. They didn't use or look at the original code. Does that still count as "clean room"? What's the legal difference between that and deriving the logic just from observing how the running program acts?

there is no legal precedence that clarifies what clean room development is. clean room development is a precaution to stay away as far as possible from the original code in order to reduce the risk of infringement. clearly, not looking at the assembly code is better than looking at it.

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#76

Post by bigbadfeline »

em-bee wrote: post #74
bigbadfeline wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is similar to creating an extension to some program There's no such thing as "an extension to some program". A derivative work is a work that contains the original. Using the privileges provided by copyright law, the creator may impose licensing restrictions on how the original work is used - but that's contract law, not copyright. For example the GPL and the AGPL define different sets of use restrictions, non…

a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel. one can use the same topic for a work of poetry for a similar aesthetic effect and that doesn't infringe other poems because the new poem does not depend on the original. the kernel driver is useless without the kernel

> a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel.

Maybe, in some alternative universe, that could be correct but it isn't anywhere on Earth.

You can write a BSD-licensed driver as a Linux module and distribute it separately all you want - copyright law is OK with that.

The moment you insert the module into the kernel the whole thing, kernel + driver becomes a derivative work and you're forbidden from using it by the GPL - the license, not copyright... Copyright only gives the creators of the kernel the privileged power to impose that contractual restriction.

Long time ago, some BSD guys were trying to convince me that the GPL was primarily a weapon against BSD and other less restrictive licenses but I didn't believe it back then... boy, was I wrong.

You showed me how the GPL can be used for threats against the free modification of software by arguing for the addition of new, absurd powers to copyright - the opposite of what the GPL proponents are promoting it for. It's indeed a license that must be avoided at all cost.

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#77

Post by phendrenad2 »

LeFantome wrote: post #9

The article is largely about the copyright concerns of LLM generated code that was almost certainly trained on the GPL original. Also, it is essentially an ext2 filesystem as it does not support journaling.

By that logic, everything is a GPL violation, because someone has written a GPL version of everything you could conceivably think of so anything you try to use AI to write, oops, tainted. Also should apply to people's brains, too. If you looked at GPL code in your life, you're tainted.

I know, the courts have ruled against this, but like, it's AI man!

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#78

Post by FeepingCreature »

plorg wrote: post #59
FeepingCreature wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the premise advanced in the quote, copyright is not being violated because there is none. Thus, the quote makes no sense as stated. It may be that, additionally, copyright is in fact being violated (I don't believe it myself), but if so that's a separate argument.

The premise of the quote does not contain the assumption that there is no copyright to the code. In fact the various contributors do not advance an opinion about whether code written by an AI can be granted copyright. Rather they are saying that it is obviously derivative of code that is under copyright, that is only distributed under terms which, however many dry cleaners process it, will still conflict with the lic…

Different people advance different arguments in the thread. The BSD argument is "we cannot distribute it because it is not copyrightable, thus we cannot put it under a BSD license." This is simply incoherent.

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#79

Post by em-bee »

bigbadfeline wrote: post #76
em-bee wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel. one can use the same topic for a work of poetry for a similar aesthetic effect and that doesn't infringe other poems because the new poem does not depend on the original. the kernel driver is useless without the kernel

> a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel. Maybe, in some alternative universe, that could be correct but it isn't anywhere on Earth. You can write a BSD-licensed driver as a Linux module and distribute it separately all you want - copyright law is OK with that. The moment you insert the module into the kernel the whole thing, kernel + dri…

not in an alternate universe, but it's a claim made by some free software people. i don't have time to search for a quote right now.

yes, it is disputed, and the claim has not been tested in court. but it is an argument being made.

the GPL was primarily a weapon against BSD.

It's indeed a license that must be avoided at all cost.

well, it depend on whose side you support. i am on the side of protecting the rights of the user to modify their software. BSD licenses don't do that. they give me the right, but they don't protect it.

more importantly, i am also on the side of the developer to protect their ability to make a living. for that the BSD license is completely useless. GPL is better, AGPL even more, but even those are not restrictive enough to prevent unfair competition by large corporations.

i am not interested in allowing those companies to benefit from my work if they are not required to pass that forward.

Re: Vibe-Coded Ext4 for OpenBSD

#80

Post by bigbadfeline »

em-bee wrote: post #79
bigbadfeline wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a kernel driver is an extension to the kernel. yet, even with a clearly defined API it is a derived work of the kernel. Maybe, in some alternative universe, that could be correct but it isn't anywhere on Earth. You can write a BSD-licensed driver as a Linux module and distribute it separately all you want - copyright law is OK with that. The moment you insert the module into the kernel the whole thing, kernel + dri…

not in an alternate universe, but it's a claim made by some free software people. i don't have time to search for a quote right now. yes, it is disputed, and the claim has not been tested in court. but it is an argument being made. the GPL was primarily a weapon against BSD. It's indeed a license that must be avoided at all cost. well, it depend on whose side you support. i am on the side of protecting the rights of…

> but it's a claim made by some free software people.

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about... Everything I write is verifiable, have you heard of AI chat bots? Why are you going around asking old ladies for the latest gossip?

> yes, it is disputed, and the claim has not been tested in court.

Why don't you test in court? Do it, let's see what happens. Why did Linus wave middle fingers like a confused clown when Nvidia's lawyers stuffed the GPL2 with their driver? There was no lawsuit, only buffoonery in place of the promised "protection".

> but it is an argument being made.

There are millions of "arguments being made", 99.9% of them are BS, if you can't defend your arguments with facts, logic and court decisions don't waste e-space by regurgitating useless gossip, especially on HN.

> BSD licenses don't do that. they give me the right, but they don't protect it.

So, that's your reason to go on a crusade against the rights provided by BSD licenses.

Oh, that's sneaky - "Let's protect people from a license that gives them more rights than ours"

Your "protection" amounts to shilling for an absurdly extended interpretation of copyright powers while it's being sold as a defense against these very powers - this kind of diabolical nonsense is the opposite of protection.

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