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Having Kids (2019)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Having Kids (2019)

#71

Post by rootusrootus »

fdghrtbrt wrote: post #20
Daneel_ wrote: post #11

I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven’t loved spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. Some joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the way the author describes. Happiness for me typ…

I would like to hear in what sense you love your kids, given that "he first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. (...) Happiness for me typically starts after my kids are in bed or when I can escape them during work hours." Do you say "I love my kids" because that's what everybody says, or…

> Do you say "I love my kids" because that's what everybody says, or is there any truth in it?

It is true that some people are not really cut out to be parents. But unfortunately it is difficult to tell whether that will be you or not. I see people looking at comments in threads like this and then chiming in with sentiments along the lines of "see, this is why I never wanted to be a parent." There is no way to know that, and such statements strike me as cope. Becoming a parent changes you, but you won't know how until you do it. There is a lot of biology and psychology in play, for certain.

As I tell my own kids, however, be careful because you only get to become a parent one time. Cannot blame someone for opting out of the risk, even if the counterfactual is that they would have been amazing parents with amazing children and been much happier.

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#72

Post by sp4cec0wb0y »

This is an easy perspective to have if you are of the generation that got into a home purchase before they went out of control. Gen Z is being priced out of creating families.

Hacker news has a bias because most people here are working in software and probably make more than the median household income (solo).

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#73

Post by alphawhisky »

camillomiller wrote: post #30
alexchantavy wrote: post #19

My favorite part is how pg says how kids made him less ambitious, but then: “On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?”

It’s called having kid while rich so you can hire nannies, tho

This. Don't forget that HN is extremely biased towards High income/net worth viewpoints. The reality for a lot of parents is much worse than most commenters here

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#74

Post by Daneel_ »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #63
Daneel_ wrote: post #11

I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven’t loved spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. Some joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the way the author describes. Happiness for me typ…

Having kids becomes a lot easier if you can do the things you enjoy with them. For me that includes all sorts of stuff such as D&D, warhammer, painting miniatures, drawing, magic the gathering, board games, etc. I also include them when I have to fix something around the house or some random electronic device that broke. If the only thing you can enjoy is adult stuff or working then you might have a rougher time at i…

Many of those are things I greatly enjoy, as well as many other things from a very diverse range of hobbies. My kids aren’t old enough to join in on those things yet (6 and 4), so I only find time to do those things once every few months, as opposed to once or twice a week pre-kids. It’s improving as they get older though, hence my hopefulness.

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#75

Post by r14c »

corry wrote: post #28

This is one of my favourites from PG, not least because it's a bit antithetical to what I perceive as a growing trend among smart, ambitious people (for whom children might represent friction, inconvenience, etc)... as well as folks for whom COL is making the question irrelevant due to practical concerns. Actually, it's really striking that even in America -- the developed country with the #1 highest birthrate -- sti…

Due to the extremely competitive nature of the US economy, a lot of people have to choose between career success (having money) and starting a family (which is expensive). I know a lot of women who want to have a family, but have struggled to get to a comfortable economic position where they can actually do it. Compounded by the wage stagnation, which makes it hard for most people to support a family on a single income. We have hollowed out our third spaces, so its difficult for people to relax and socialize. Even vibing ends up being a kind of competition because of the high costs. Not to mention the perverse incentives in the housing market.

None of this is conducive to starting a family.

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#76

Post by genthree »

camillomiller wrote: post #30
alexchantavy wrote: post #19

My favorite part is how pg says how kids made him less ambitious, but then: “On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?”

It’s called having kid while rich so you can hire nannies, tho

100%. I had to drop about half my interests and hobbies after having kids, to remain sane (trying to continue juggling all of them was plainly just going to lead to never doing anything, really), and adjust all the others to fit better with kid-having.

If you can't hire "help", it's like losing 20 waking hours from your week, at least, just for the not-at-all fun or "quality time" parts of having a kid (extra housekeeping [so... very much more], extra shopping, taxiing the kids places, extra household planning, basic hygiene stuff, et c). And on top of that you need to spend "fun" time with them, too, like that part may be more enjoyable but it's non-optional and a lot of stuff an adult might want to do or accomplish doesn't integrate well with it.

Slice ~30-40 hours off the waking hours of both adults in the household, on top of 45-50 hours of work and other stuff necessary for work (commute, et c.) and... yeah this is just bullshit if you can't hire help.

[EDIT] Oh, this reminds me of a certain genre of LinkedIn post that I especially hate: the CEO bragging about how they find time for family despite having five jobs. The real answer to this mystery is that zero of those jobs are actually full-time work, and, the part they never mention, is that they pay others to do tens of hours of work per week that normal people have to do themselves, like lawn care, housekeeping, fixing broken shit in their house, shopping, keeping track of and making appointments and such, et c.

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#77

Post by [deleted] »

Daneel_ wrote: post #11

I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven’t loved spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. Some joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the way the author describes. Happiness for me typ…

[deleted]

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#78

Post by [deleted] »

corry wrote: post #28

This is one of my favourites from PG, not least because it's a bit antithetical to what I perceive as a growing trend among smart, ambitious people (for whom children might represent friction, inconvenience, etc)... as well as folks for whom COL is making the question irrelevant due to practical concerns. Actually, it's really striking that even in America -- the developed country with the #1 highest birthrate -- sti…

[deleted]

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#79

Post by nDRDY »

jasonkester wrote: post #22

Before having kids, I expected it to be this huge life changing thing. That it would effectively end the part of my life where I was free to do whatever I wanted, and start the part where I was just Daddy, doing nothing except serving my childrens' needs. But that didn't happen. We just carried on being Jason and his partner, but with a baby in tow. I had spent most of my 30s cramming in as much "living" as possible,…

You have just the one kid, right?

We were the same ;-)

Re: Having Kids (2019)

#80

Post by lukevp »

Daneel_ wrote: post #11

I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven’t loved spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. Some joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the way the author describes. Happiness for me typ…

Thank you for posting this. It’s totally understandable and believable that you simultaneously love them and regret some things about it. There’s this insane pressure in our society to never acknowledge the toll that kids have and to never speak out about this. I remember when this article was first posted and how I received it, like I was wrong for not being sure about kids, and that some change would come over me when I had them. Truth is, that doesn’t happen with everyone. Then the world tries to gaslight those people who don’t feel that way into feeling like they’re broken somehow.

I’m sure you love your kids and take great care of them, and it’s not your fault that you feel this way.

It would benefit all of us if this taboo was lifted, so that we could speak truthfully about the impact of kids on families, and maybe then we’d have to provide more support and encouragement to convince people to have them. Not everyone has free daycare from their grandparents or a large social network to babysit or the finances that make having a child less of a burden.

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