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Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

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Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#71

Post by fuzzfactor »

ses1984 wrote: post #42
xcf_seetan wrote: post #14

Actually is not a guitar problem, but all 12-TET tuned instruments have this, it is just a side effect of harmonic math. In the guitar case it is not only the tuning that counts, also the material the string are made and the diameter of the strings count to the final frequency, and we are using parallel frets so applying the same distance to different strings. There are guitars with not parallel frets that try to com…

There are two type of “not parallel” frets and neither have anything to do with the diameter of the strings. Different guitarists use different diameter strings because the diameter determines the tension when you tune to pitch. Different people prefer different tension. Most shredders prefer light tension. Most jazz players prefer high tension. The diameter is compensated at the bridge and in some guitars the nut. W…

Yes, the diameter is compensated at the same time as the tension.

When the string's action is higher above the frets, the tension increases more when fretted than open, to a greater degree than low action.

So the saddle for that string needs to be positioned such that the plucked portion of the string is slightly longer than it would need to be if the tension were the same as the open string.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#72

Post by semitones »

dagmx wrote: post #69

I’m surprised they don’t show true temperament frets. https://strandbergguitars.com/en-WW/magazine/true-temperamen... They solve exactly for this issue, and sound amazing in use. The downside is that you are somewhat locked into a given tuning. Alternatively you can take the approach of guitars with movable frets so you can adjust them per tuning. https://youtu.be/EZC69A8TsJ8?si=7hUIb7FEKb45eV_L These are generally u…

True temperament solves for a _different_ issue than what OP's post talks about. From the strandberg true temperament page:

> Let’s begin by describing the issue with standard equal tempered frets; standard fret spacing is calculated from one single piece of information about the guitar, the scale length. This principle ignores that the frequency of a vibrating string is calculated by three factors: the mass of the string, the tension applied and the speaking length. All three of these factors are affected to different degrees each time a string is pressed down on a fret. The only way to correctly compensate for all three of these parameters is to adjust each string-to-fret connection point independently, until each note plays the correct frequency. This issue, which is impossible to solve with standard tempered frets, is what True Temperament solves.

So the true temperament system is compensating for the fact that a thicker string behaves differently when fretted than a thinner string. It still provides a 12 TET system however.

What you are probably thinking of, is a _just intonation_ fretboard, which exists and looks very different: https://projectionsliberantes.ca/en/guitars-tuning-system/

You can see that rather than squiggles, different strings have frets in completely different places.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#73

Post by kjkjadksj »

dahart wrote: post #65
52-6F-62 wrote: post #5

Absurd. A guitar within tolerance is in tune. It's a fundamental feature of the instrument. Not a flaw. Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections, it is an expression however formed. The fact that we can measure it is one thing. But the music or instruments do not need conform to discrete measurements to satisfy. I know engineers hate this, but ask any musician. It's like arguing that a sitar and its sca…

Many musicians can readily confirm that the difference between temperaments can be felt and heard by trained ears. A guitar tuned to equal temperament has major thirds that warble audibly. It feels different when you use just intonation, which isn’t generally possible on a guitar.

Why can’t you use intonation? Isn’t that just confirming the note is the same on different strings? And also the goal of bridge adjustment?

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#74

Post by Zuider »

goblin89 wrote: post #45
sgarrity wrote: post #3

My first guitar teacher told me that someday I'd start to notice that you can't get all strings perfectly in tune. At that point, he said, you'll know you're getting somewhere on the guitar.

With an ordinary fretted guitar, you can sort of perfectly tune it to what you play but not perfectly tune it in a global sense. That’s an issue with tuning instruments in general, and why pianos are generally slightly out of tune as a compromise. As you get used to a particular guitar and strings, as you train your ear, you can also learn to work around the imperfections by adjusting how you hold down the strings (e…

Classical guitarists are used to pushing nylon strings into consonance by compressing the string either towards the nut or the bridge. Not so easy with steel, where players will just preemptively retune to whatever chords are most prominent in the song.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#75

Post by kjkjadksj »

YZF wrote: post #62
relaxing wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any musician with enough training will tell you which notes are out of tune on their well-tuned instrument, and how they correct for it as they play. Just because we live with the trade-off doesn’t make it correct in any other sense.

I don't think this is generally true for the guitar. There are even songs that have notes intentionally out of tune (e.g. Scar Tissue by the Red Hot Chili Peppers). Agree with the OP that the characteristics of the guitar, including its "out of perfect tune", is what gives its music its unique characteristic. It's not a bug it's a feature. There might be some people with perfect pitch who get annoyed but for most peo…

Outside of people like van halen also pretty much no one is exploring the entire neck on a single song. So the issue of the guitar not being perfectly intonated is irrelevant since they are using just a piece of its range.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#77

Post by Zuider »

wrs wrote: post #68

Not all instruments are limited to a fixed set of pitches. A good classical string player micro-adjusts each individual note to adapt to its harmonic context. For example, making all the thirds and fifths sound good even when the key changes, or adjusting a leading tone up or down very slightly to make it even more leading. Another way to think of it is that they have to hit every pitch without assistance from the in…

This sensitivity to intonation is why all the great quartet composers were either deaf, Hungarian, or both.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#78

Post by fuzzfactor »

jama211 wrote: post #66

Isn’t there a similar issue with pianos?

Yes, and besides that no matter what you do you just can't get these virtuosos to tune their pianos on the spot ;)

So you've got to tune your guitar to sound good with them and probably not just matching your open strings to their corresponding notes.

While your electronic tuner flashes an ugly warning or the strobe tuner won't stand still :(

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#79

Post by semitones »

wrs wrote: post #68

Not all instruments are limited to a fixed set of pitches. A good classical string player micro-adjusts each individual note to adapt to its harmonic context. For example, making all the thirds and fifths sound good even when the key changes, or adjusting a leading tone up or down very slightly to make it even more leading. Another way to think of it is that they have to hit every pitch without assistance from the in…

fretless and continuous instruments are not confined to 12-TET

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#80

Post by dagmx »

semitones wrote: post #72
dagmx wrote: post #69

I’m surprised they don’t show true temperament frets. https://strandbergguitars.com/en-WW/magazine/true-temperamen... They solve exactly for this issue, and sound amazing in use. The downside is that you are somewhat locked into a given tuning. Alternatively you can take the approach of guitars with movable frets so you can adjust them per tuning. https://youtu.be/EZC69A8TsJ8?si=7hUIb7FEKb45eV_L These are generally u…

True temperament solves for a _different_ issue than what OP's post talks about. From the strandberg true temperament page: > Let’s begin by describing the issue with standard equal tempered frets; standard fret spacing is calculated from one single piece of information about the guitar, the scale length. This principle ignores that the frequency of a vibrating string is calculated by three factors: the mass of the s…

A true temperament isn’t just about compensating for the string mass differences but also for their differing intonation points. A true temperament won’t get to the same level as a movable fret system but it does also compensate to a certain degree for the differing intonation points across strings at different tunings (what it refers to as speaking length which captures both point to point length and mass related deformation length). They’re different but inherently associated issues.

More information is here https://www.thatguitarlover.com/blog/what-is-true-temperamen...

But this is also why I mention both fret compensation systems in my original post.

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