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Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

politico.eu

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Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#71

Post by quickthrowman »

kerkeslager wrote: post #49
quickthrowman wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seattle lowered the speed limit on a lot of roads, but didn't do much else beyond add a few "No turn on red" signs. As you said, that doesn’t do anything since the road is designed to go 35-45 MPH, that is how fast people will go, with the exception of inflexible rule followers that drive 25 MPH and cause dangerous speed differentials. My city has been doing traffic calming projects where they redesign the road for…

> As you said, that doesn’t do anything since the road is designed to go 35-45 MPH, that is how fast people will go, with the exception of inflexible rule followers that drive 25 MPH and cause dangerous speed differentials. If speediots followed the rules, there wouldn't be a speed differential. You're blaming the rule followers, when in fact it is the people with the patience of a toddler causing the speed different…

> If speediots followed the rules, there wouldn't be a speed differential.

But, they don’t. So there is a speed differential. That’s reality, you aren’t going to change that unless you start executing people that speed, and that isn’t a realistic solution.

Redesigning the road so people instinctively drive slower does actually work. You take a four lane road, and change it to a two-lane road with left turn lanes, concrete medians that make the road appear narrower, concrete aprons that jut out into the road at crosswalks to make it appear even narrower, wider medians, and so on. The two major roads in my neighborhood have been redesigned this way and the results have been great, if a road is properly designed for a specific speed, you can actually get people to drive slower. It works on me, and I know the tricks.

What you’re arguing for is akin to operating industrial machinery without safeties, relying on unreliable humans to moderate their behavior, when you could prevent it by designing the road so that even speeders drive the speed limit or slightly over.

I’ve seen redesigning roads actually work, you can be dismissive and pray that people will magically follow the rules, but that won’t make it so.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#72

Post by enaaem »

SilverElfin wrote: post #68

These data free claims don’t ever honestly talk about how they simply made driving so inefficient and bad on purpose so that the other, slower modes, don’t look as bad. Increasing travel times and inconvenience isn’t a win and safetyism is irrational. If you can’t make fast driving safer you haven’t achieved anything really. And as for vision zero - you’ll never get perfect safety and it isn’t worth the tradeoffs.

Can you tell us about your experience driving in Helsinki?

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#73

Post by paulryanrogers »

SilverElfin wrote: post #68

These data free claims don’t ever honestly talk about how they simply made driving so inefficient and bad on purpose so that the other, slower modes, don’t look as bad. Increasing travel times and inconvenience isn’t a win and safetyism is irrational. If you can’t make fast driving safer you haven’t achieved anything really. And as for vision zero - you’ll never get perfect safety and it isn’t worth the tradeoffs.

> Increasing travel times and inconvenience isn’t a win and safetyism is irrational.

By very narrow definitions of win. Perhaps more time in transit is worth fewer deaths and less pollution. (I rode a bike daily and year round in northern Ohio for 8y.)

> If you can’t make fast driving safer you haven’t achieved anything really.

By what measure of achievement? Zero traffic deaths in a heavily populated city is quite an accomplishment IMO. But I'm not a racecar driver so maybe I'm unqualified to judge.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#75

Post by kerkeslager »

randerson wrote: post #21
cyberax wrote: post #3

Meanwhile, pedestrian deaths are up in all the large coastal US cities that went full-on with the "Zero Vision" policies. Seattle, Portland, SF enshittified their roads, limited the traffic speed, choked the streets with bike lanes, drank all the KoolAid. Yet the deaths _increased_.

But there's practically zero enforcement and everyone knows it. You have the few law abiding people doing 25 while others are doing 50 while stoned and texting.. on the same road. Narrowing lanes creates new hazards because cars sold are only getting larger and can barely fit. There is too often no margin for error. There are no roadworthiness inspections in these states. Many people are driving on worn tires and sus…

> Don't even get me started on how easy it is to get a driver's license with no clue how to drive. If they wanted to reduce deaths they should start by raising the bar on license difficulty.

Retesting is vital, too. Every 10 years. And if you have something like 3 moving violations you should have to do some community service, and retake the test.

I don't believe in fines on individuals: if the punishment for a crime is a fine, that law only applies to the poor. If you insist on endangering the lives of the people around you, then you get the same inconvenience as anyone else.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#76

Post by tfyoung »

RandallBrown wrote: post #8

I can't say I'd be excited about 19 mph speed limits enforced by cameras, but I don't doubt it would work. I'd love for my city to just focus on making other forms of transportation more appealing. More bus lanes, more (properly designed) bike lanes, etc.

You know what makes bike lanes more appealing and safer (amongst other things)? Not being next to speeding cars.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#77

Post by suzdude »

busterarm wrote: post #55
tombert wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it amusing that people will quote the "Greed is Good" speech by Gordon Gecko, and they will do it unironically, I guess forgetting that he's the villain in that movie. You're not supposed to agree with him.

[flagged]

And how many hundreds of millions has capitalism killed?

Considering American involved Wars: American Civil War, Vietnam War, First Gulf War, Iraq War, World War 2

Considering how many millions have died due to unrestrained capitalism destroying ecosystem, contaminating air, water, soil?

Please do not pretend that capitalism does not promote nor allow the deaths of those who it is profitable to allow to die.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#78

Post by kerkeslager »

quickthrowman wrote: post #71
kerkeslager wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As you said, that doesn’t do anything since the road is designed to go 35-45 MPH, that is how fast people will go, with the exception of inflexible rule followers that drive 25 MPH and cause dangerous speed differentials. If speediots followed the rules, there wouldn't be a speed differential. You're blaming the rule followers, when in fact it is the people with the patience of a toddler causing the speed different…

> If speediots followed the rules, there wouldn't be a speed differential. But, they don’t. So there is a speed differential. That’s reality, you aren’t going to change that unless you start executing people that speed, and that isn’t a realistic solution. Redesigning the road so people instinctively drive slower does actually work. You take a four lane road, and change it to a two-lane road with left turn lanes, con…

> That’s reality, you aren’t going to change that unless you start executing people that speed, and that isn’t a realistic solution.

This is an adult conversation, please think before you type absurdities like this.

If (A) there was enough enforcement to actually catch people that speed, and (B) the punishment was rehabilitative (you have to clean up the roadway you were endangering people's lives on and take a class to retest for your license) there would be far fewer speeders.

> What you’re arguing for is akin to operating industrial machinery without safeties

No, actually, I'd love if we redesigned roads so people instinctively drive slower. I'm not arguing against that in any way.

All my post was doing was insisting that if you're going to blame someone, you place blame where it belongs. You're blaming people doing what they should be doing instead of the people endangering everyone around them.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#79

Post by belorn »

Scoundreller wrote: post #44
philip1209 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's a reason speedbumps are called "silent policemen"

I call them SUV/pickup truck sellers or reasonably-sized-vehicle killers. Alternatively, greenhouse-gas bumps. Dunno which genius in my town put them on a road riddled with potholes, poorly filled road cuts and marsh-related unevenness.

Some of the speed bumps-like techniques here in Sweden will do more than just be a bump, it will severely damage the tires if you don't slow down. Curbs that require the driver to make very tight turns for example can be made from fairly sharp stone with an clear edge. A SUV/pickup truck can speed over it, but the trip to the repair shop will make it less fun.

They added some square-like flower pots in the middle of a lovely road next to where I live in order to force drivers to make a double S turn. Those are made from sharp rust-painted steel, and most of the corners are now painted with other peoples car paint. The only way to make it through is to drive at walking speed, which basically everyone do.

Re: Helsinki just went a full year without a single traffic death

#80

Post by kelseyfrog »

suzdude wrote: post #77
busterarm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And how many hundreds of millions has capitalism killed? Considering American involved Wars: American Civil War, Vietnam War, First Gulf War, Iraq War, World War 2 Considering how many millions have died due to unrestrained capitalism destroying ecosystem, contaminating air, water, soil? Please do not pretend that capitalism does not promote nor allow the deaths of those who it is profitable to allow to die.

Every death under socialism is attributed to socialism. Every death under capitalism is attributed to individual failing or inevitability. Please follow the rules.
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