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Don't make me talk to your chatbot

raymyers.org

71–80 of 221 posts

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#71
post #8
post #3

I view the issue of inefficient communication as a problem that will wane as LLMs progress, and a bit idealistic about the efficiency of most human-to-human communication. I feel strongly that we shouldn't be forced to interact with chatbots for a much simpler reason: it's rude. It's dismissive of the time and attention of the person on the other end; it demonstrates laziness or an inability to succeed without cuttin…

The problem is that people are very rude to customer service representatives, so companies spend money training CSRs, who often quit after a short period of being abused by customers. Automated reception systems disallow people from reaching representatives for the same reason.

CSRs are abused by call center managers far more often than they are by the people on the other end of the phone line. The endless push for "better" metrics, the terrible pay, the dehumanizing scripts, bad (or zero) training, optimizing to make every employee interchangeable and expendable, unforgiving attendance policies, treating workers like children, etc. Call centers are brutal environments and the reason churn is often so high has very little to do with abuse from the people calling for help. In fact, the last two call centers I had any insight into (to their credit) had strict policies about not taking abuse from customers and would flag abusive customer's accounts.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#72
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever had a chatbot solve your problem? I don't think this has ever happened to me. As a reasonably technical user capable of using search, the only way this could really happen is if there was no web/app interface for something I wanted to do, but there was a chatbot/AI interface for it. Perhaps companies will decide to go chatbot-first for these things, and perhaps customers will prefer that. But I doubt it…

Actually, I have, Amazon has an excellent one. I had a few exchanges with it, and it initiated a refund for me, it was much quicker than a normal customer service call. Outside of customer service, I'm working on a website that has a huge amount of complexity to it, and would require a much larger interface than normal people would have patience for. So instead, those complex facets are exposed to an LLM as tools it…

I'm happy that LLMs are encouraging people to add discoverable APIs to their products. Do you think you can make the endpoints public, so they can be used for automation without the LLM in the way?

If you need an LLM spin to convince management, maybe you can say something about "bring your own agent" and "openclaw", or something else along those lines?

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#73
post #13

People demand free support. When I worked at Microsoft, it cost over $20 to have a human customer support agent pick up the phone when someone called in for help. That was greater than our product margin. Every time someone called for help, we basically lost the entire profit on that sale, and then some. Most common support calls where for things that were explained in the manual, the out of box experience, tutorial…

My last experience with a support chatbot was actually pretty decent. It collected all the information, asked followup details, and then fired that whole thing off to a human to deal with. It was perfectly fine.

Do you remember what product they used?

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#74
post #13

People demand free support. When I worked at Microsoft, it cost over $20 to have a human customer support agent pick up the phone when someone called in for help. That was greater than our product margin. Every time someone called for help, we basically lost the entire profit on that sale, and then some. Most common support calls where for things that were explained in the manual, the out of box experience, tutorial…

Microsoft is a company that has very little right to complain about support costs. They'd save themselves a fortune if they stopped releasing bad software and updates that required support in the first place. Nobody wants to call Microsoft for support. They do it because they've been forced to, usually by Microsoft. This kind of support can hardly be called "free" because even when Microsoft isn't charging customers…

> They'd save themselves a fortune if they stopped releasing bad software

I doubt it. I suspect the number one tech support call is "I forgot my password" and everything else is a long way below that.

I'll slag on Microslop all day, but users are dumber than dumb.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#75

It matters less to me that the helper is an AI/human than the kind of help I'm getting. The bigger problem to me is "help" is always framed as my needing to be educated, not a problem with the service. This is especially prevalent for technical customers who are legitimately trying to draw attention to a bug in the platform only to get how-to help articles pasted back to them.

Or technical customers with a case that was not handled properly. I'm thinking of long, long ago, ISP changed the Usenet server and didn't document it--not on their website, not with their tech support. It shouldn't have taken an hour and a third level support person to get we changed providers, here's the new address. First two levels simply couldn't comprehend that it was not a third party system that I was having trouble with.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#76

I just signed up with Gusto for one of my companies. They charged me for premium support automatically and when I tried to dispute it I had to talk in circles with their AI named Gus. Why am I paying through the nose for premium support just to chat with an AI?

Gusto is a nightmare if your account needs fall out of their happy path. Everything is 100% automated with call center scripts to help you otherwise. You will never reach someone with power to fix anything.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#77
As a customer, I just want the information I need. While I don't want to talk to a chatbot, I also don't want to talk to a human - and for the same reason: they usually don't have the info I need.

That's the aspect I don't understand. The information I want is almost always something some other customers have asked already. I'd much prefer to avoid their customer support maze entirely and help myself on a searchable wiki. Unfortunately, most company's online product support FAQs usually only contain answers to obvious shit on the order of RTFM and "is it plugged in." Why not just post the doc their advanced tier 3 support people share amongst themselves? It can be under a warning label like 'preliminary advanced info for engineers'.

I realize people like me represent only around 2-3% of the customers seeking support but it's 2-3% that is able to self-serve and takes more time than average because we invariably have to work through front-line support to get escalated to someone with the non-obvious info that's still been asked many times before. So maybe we're only ~2% but we suck up 4% of support bandwidth and we probably take up closer to ~20% of Tier 3 support - the most expensive, scarce type.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#78
post #62

Reading almost all the comments gives me the sad validation that people truly do not read the article before commenting... This article is not about support chatbots. It's about clearing up your writing/thoughts and communicating clearly even if you used a chatbot to get there.

It's absolutely miserable isn't it. People see a headline, decide they have an important thing they must tell the world and just blurt it out. Imagine doing this in conversation. You'd overhear a fragment of conversation and just interject with some semi related bullshit that makes you feel smart and then leave.

People on HN spend most of their time congratulating themselves on how they aren't like other social media platforms, but do the exact same crap anyways.

When it comes to technical discussions, there are so many people on here just regurgitating what they read on an earlier thread. Maybe to test if what they heard was true. Maybe because they just want to sound smart. Not a lot of people actually trying things.

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#79
post #3

I view the issue of inefficient communication as a problem that will wane as LLMs progress, and a bit idealistic about the efficiency of most human-to-human communication. I feel strongly that we shouldn't be forced to interact with chatbots for a much simpler reason: it's rude. It's dismissive of the time and attention of the person on the other end; it demonstrates laziness or an inability to succeed without cuttin…

> a bit idealistic about the efficiency of most human-to-human communication.

I don't know if I would call it idealism. I feel like what we're discovering is that while the efficiency of communication is important, the efficacy of communication is more important. And chatbots are far less reliable at communicating the important/relevant information correctly. It doesn't really matter how easy it is to send an email if the email simply says the wrong thing.

To your point though, it's just rude. I've already seen a few cases where people have been chastised for checking out of a conversation and effectively letting their chatbot engage for them. Those conversations revolved around respect and good faith, not efficiency (or even efficacy, for that matter).

Re: Don't make me talk to your chatbot

#80
The worst part isn't that chatbots are bad at their job. It's that teams shipping them genuinely don't know how bad they are. Nobody's reading the conversations, so nobody catches users hitting dead ends, rage-clicking, or dropping off right after a failed session. The data exists, it just sits there unread.
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