Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

mikeayles.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–75 of 75 posts

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#71

Post by ryantgtg »

ryantgtg wrote: post #47
schainks wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me how the capital costs of rolling out high PSI hydrogen infra will be cheaper than building a power grid. You can even refit and re-use existing natural gas pipelines to move hydrogen if you want to cheat. I am willing to bet the costs per kW will still be crazy, especially at last mile where you are in an area populated by humans. I don't see a bright future for hydrogen in transport while we keep putting che…

Yeah. Vehicle costs are pretty much the same (for battery electric and fuel cell electric buses, at least) and are about 2-3x more than ICE. On-site hydrogen infra for fueling/storage is substantially more than charging equipment. H2 fuel is currently $10-20 per kg (the higher end accounts for vapor losses), which is, again, much greater than either diesel or electricity.

Replying to myself. I just read the article. The gray/blue/green H2 fuel costs in the article do not reflect current U.S. fuel costs.

Gray is $8-10 for liquid delivery. This equates to a little over $1 per mile, which - compared to a CNG bus - is double the operating cost (and about 4x more than a battery electric bus per mile... just for fuel/electricity). And yeah, as I mentioned previously, capital costs will be like 1.3x of battery electric.

That said, there are lots of novel ideas out there for creating H2 fuel! Forest waste (with supposedly all carbon captured), methane pyrolysis (with carbon bricks as an output). The promises never end.

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#72

Post by mikestorrent »

xbmcuser wrote: post #58
mikestorrent wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trucks are a far cry from cars. There's a lot more space and specialized service facilities and maintenance procedures are the norm. Drivers are expected to understand far more about their vehicles.

I don't understand what you mean Nio the car manufacturer is already doing 100k+ battery swaps a day for passenger cars. I mentioned ev trucks as some mentioned that hydrogen would be easier / cheaper for trucks which I think is wrong as using explosions to move object won't be as cheap or maintenance free as using electricity to move magnets/motors.

I've gone and watched a video on this now and am impressed, it is a lot further along than I knew about.

Consider this as it scales up, though - I can get electricity from anywhere for my car, from a 120V socket in front of a building that a nice owner lets me borrow for an hour, to a 600VDC superfast charger. I can get gasoline anywhere. Heck, there are even hydrogen stations around here now.

I just don't see this kind of thing being scalable to anything other than small urban areas, which are exactly the place they're not needed, because you can charge a car with 300-400km battery range once a week or less and be fine in the city. Where I need my battery swap is more likely to be while I'm on a road trip going for distance. How could I be confident a full battery that's compatible with my car is going to be available for me, and that all the automation to replace it will be in perfect shape, and that the bottom of my car hasn't rusted to the point where this doesn't work anymore?

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#73

Post by mikestorrent »

RandallBrown wrote: post #56
mikestorrent wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of swappable batteries in theory, but in reality... well... that's a lot of logistics and a lot of potential for things to go wrong. Consider the swappable propane tank market, for instance; it's clear that returning cans need refurbishment and testing before you can give them back out to people. This implies it probably can't be just done on-site at a gas station. They also weigh an absolute ton, so…

Doesn't Nio have a few thousand battery swapping stations in China?

Another commenter pointed that out, it's impressive, but when one imagines trying to do that kind of thing in North America where we can't even build new train tracks it seems somewhat infeasible

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#74

Post by Rygian »

trhway wrote: post #65
mikeayles wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done a deep dive here: https://www.mikeayles.com/blog/on-vehicle-hydrogen-generatio... Short answer, it takes more energy to generate than the energy it produces. You can do things like only producing electrical power from the alternator when decelerating, ensuring no load comes off the engine, but that would require accumulation as you're not actually burning fuel then either. But running the numbers on the p…

i meant hydrogen from regular fuel, not from water.

Surely that's a thermodynamic waste? Use the energy in the fuel to extract hydrogen from the fuel to them use the energy in the hydrogen to generate electricity to turn the wheels.

Is there a chemical process that achieves this with a better efficiency than just using the fuel to turn the wheels?

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#75

Post by xbmcuser »

mikestorrent wrote: post #72
xbmcuser wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you mean Nio the car manufacturer is already doing 100k+ battery swaps a day for passenger cars. I mentioned ev trucks as some mentioned that hydrogen would be easier / cheaper for trucks which I think is wrong as using explosions to move object won't be as cheap or maintenance free as using electricity to move magnets/motors.

I've gone and watched a video on this now and am impressed, it is a lot further along than I knew about. Consider this as it scales up, though - I can get electricity from anywhere for my car, from a 120V socket in front of a building that a nice owner lets me borrow for an hour, to a 600VDC superfast charger. I can get gasoline anywhere. Heck, there are even hydrogen stations around here now. I just don't see this k…

Actually battery swaps and needing fast charging are for city car owners for rest of the people that own houses they mostly don't need fast charging. They can install solar and can easily charge at home. Most private cars run for less than 2 hours a day. And are parked somewhere most of day I think need for fast charging is mostly about non ev owners not realising they do not need to do things the way they used to with gas cars. Battery swapping is more useful for commercial vehicles that are constantly running
Post reply on HN