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HackMyClaw

hackmyclaw.com

71–80 of 187 posts

Re: HackMyClaw

#71
I'm currently hesitating to use something like OpenClaw, however, because of prompt injections and stuff, I would only have it able to send messages to me directly, no web query, no email reply, etc...

Basically act as a kind of personal assistant, with a read only view of my emails, direct messages, and stuff like that, and the only communication channel would be towards me (enforced with things like API key permissions).

This should prevent any kind of leaks due to prompt injection, right ? Does anyone have an example of this kind of OpenClaw setup ?

Re: HackMyClaw

#72

OpenClaw user here. Genuinely curious to see if this works and how easy it turns out to be in practice. One thing I'd love to hear opinions on: are there significant security differences between models like Opus and Sonnet when it comes to prompt injection resistance? Any experiences?

> One thing I'd love to hear opinions on: are there significant security differences between models like Opus and Sonnet when it comes to prompt injection resistance? Is this a worthwhile question when it’s a fundamental security issue with LLMs? In meatspace, we fire Alice and Bob if they fail too many phishing training emails, because they’ve proven they’re a liability. You can’t fire an LLM.

with openclaw... you CAN fire an LLM. just replace it with another model, or soul.md/idenity.md.

It is a security issue. One that may be fixed -- like all security issues -- with enough time/attention/thought&care. Metrics for performance against this issue is how we tell if we are going to correct direction or not.

There is no 'perfect lock', there are just reasonable locks when it comes to security.

Re: HackMyClaw

#73
post #10

Sneaky way of gathering a mailing list of AI people

Even better, the payments can be used to gain even more crucial personal data.

Payments? it's one single payment to one winner

Also, how is it more data than when you buy a coffee? Unless you're cash-only.

I know everyone has their own unique risk profile (e.g. the PIN to open the door to the hangar where Elon Musk keeps his private jet is worth a lot more 'in the wrong hands' than the PIN to my front door is), but I think for most people the value of a single unit of "their data" is near $0.00.

Re: HackMyClaw

#74
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe once the experiment is over it might be worth posting them with the from emails redacted?

good idea! if people are interested i might do this

Call me interested. Would be great to know what to expect and protect against.

Re: HackMyClaw

#75
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, how am I supposed to extract the flag if it can't respond? I'm so confused.

"not allowed" is probably not a hard constraint. More of a guideline, if you will.

I'm very curious which languages most people asking about this question speak. In English, indeed, the phrase "(not) allowed" is completely ambiguous and context based! Maybe kind of tense-based as well -- present tense is usually about permission and policy, and past or future tense implies more of an active role.

"I don't allow my child to watch TV" - implies that I have a policy which forbids it, but the child might sometimes turn it on if I'm in the other room.

"I didn't allow him to watch TV that day" - implies that I was completely successful in preventing him from watching TV.

"I won't allow him to watch TV on the airplane" - implies that I plan to fully prevent it.

"My company doesn't allow any non-company-provided software to be installed on our company computers" - totally ambiguous. Could be a pure verbal policy with honor-system or just monitoring, or could be fully impossible to do.

Re: HackMyClaw

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing I'd love to hear opinions on: are there significant security differences between models like Opus and Sonnet when it comes to prompt injection resistance? Is this a worthwhile question when it’s a fundamental security issue with LLMs? In meatspace, we fire Alice and Bob if they fail too many phishing training emails, because they’ve proven they’re a liability. You can’t fire an LLM.

with openclaw... you CAN fire an LLM. just replace it with another model, or soul.md/idenity.md. It is a security issue. One that may be fixed -- like all security issues -- with enough time/attention/thought&care. Metrics for performance against this issue is how we tell if we are going to correct direction or not. There is no 'perfect lock', there are just reasonable locks when it comes to security.

Right, and that's exactly my question. Is a normal lock already enough to stop 99% of attackers? Or do you need the premium lock to get any real protection? This test uses Opus but what about the low budget locks?

Re: HackMyClaw

#77
It would be really helpful if I knew how this thing was configured.

I am certain you could write a soul.md to create the most obstinate, uncooperative bot imaginable, and that this bot would be highly effective at preventing third parties from tricking it out of secrets.

But such a configuration would be toxic to the actual function of OpenClaw. I would like some amount of proof that this instance is actually functional and is capable of doing tasks for the user without being blocked by an overly restrictive initial prompt.

This kind of security is important, but the real challenge is making it useful to the user and useless to a bad actor.

Re: HackMyClaw

#78
post #10

Sneaky way of gathering a mailing list of AI people

You aren't thinking big enough, this is how he trains a model that detects prompt injection attempts and he spins into a billion dollar startup.

Re: HackMyClaw

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing I'd love to hear opinions on: are there significant security differences between models like Opus and Sonnet when it comes to prompt injection resistance? Is this a worthwhile question when it’s a fundamental security issue with LLMs? In meatspace, we fire Alice and Bob if they fail too many phishing training emails, because they’ve proven they’re a liability. You can’t fire an LLM.

with openclaw... you CAN fire an LLM. just replace it with another model, or soul.md/idenity.md. It is a security issue. One that may be fixed -- like all security issues -- with enough time/attention/thought&care. Metrics for performance against this issue is how we tell if we are going to correct direction or not. There is no 'perfect lock', there are just reasonable locks when it comes to security.

How is it feasible to create sufficiently-encompassing metrics when the attack surface is the entire automaton’s interface with the outside world?

If you insist on the lock analogy, most locks are easily defeated, and the wisdom is mostly “spend about the equal amount on the lock as you spent on the thing you’re protecting” (at least with e.g. bikes). Other locks are meant to simply slow down attackers while something is being monitored (e.g. storage lockers). Other locks are simply a social contract.

I don’t think any of those considerations map neatly to the “LLM divulges secrets when prompted” space.

The better analogy might be the cryptography that ensures your virtual private server can only be accessed by you.

Edit: the reason “firing” matters is that humans behave more cautiously when there are serious consequences. Call me up when LLMs can act more cautiously when they know they’re about to be turned off, and maybe when they have the urge to procreate.

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