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X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

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Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#71
post #30

> The prosecutor's office also said it was leaving X and would communicate on LinkedIn and Instagram from now on. I mean, perhaps it's time to completely drop these US-owned, closed-source, algo-driven controversial platforms, and start treating the communication with the public that funds your existence in different terms. The goal should be to reach as many people, of course, but also to ensure that the method and…

> The goal should be to reach as many people, of course, but also to ensure that the method and medium of communication is in the interest of the public at large. Who decides what communication is in the interest of the public at large? The Trump administration?

You appear to have posted a bit of a loaded question here, apologies if I'm misinterpreting your comment. It is, of course, the public that should decide what communication is of public interest, at least in a democracy operating optimally.

I suppose the answer, if we're serious about it, is somewhat more nuanced.

To begin, public administrations should not get to unilaterally define "the public interest" in their communication, nor should private platforms for that matter. Assuming we're still talking about a democracy, the decision-making should be democratically via a combination of law + rights + accountable institutions + public scrutiny, with implementation constraints that maximise reach, accessibility, auditability, and independence from private gatekeepers. The last bit is rather relevant, because the private sector's interests and the citizen's interests are nearly always at odds in any modern society, hence the state's roles as rule-setter (via democratic processes) and arbiter. Happy to get into further detail regarding the actual processes involved, if you're genuinely interested.

That aside - there are two separate problems that often get conflated when we talk about these platforms:

- one is reach: people are on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, so publishing there increases distribution; public institutions should be interested in reaching as many citizens as possible with their comms;

- the other one is dependency: if those become the primary or exclusive channels, the state's relationship with citizens becomes contingent on private moderation, ranking algorithms, account lockouts, paywalls, data extraction, and opaque rule changes. That is entirely and dangerously misaligned with democratic accountability.

A potential middle position could be ti use commercial social platforms as secondary distribution instead of the authoritative channel, which in reality is often the case. However, due to the way societies work and how individuals operate within them, the public won't actually come across the information until it's distributed on the most popular platforms. Which is why some argue that they should be treated as public utilities since dominant communications infrastructure has quasi-public function (rest assured, I won't open that can of worms right now).

Politics is messy in practice, as all balancing acts are - a normal price to pay for any democratic society, I'd say. Mix that with technology, social psychology and philosophies of liberty, rights, and wellbeing, and you have a proper head-scratcher on your hands. We've already done a lot to balance these, for sure, but we're not there yet and it's a dynamic, developing field that presents new challenges.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSAM does not have a universal definition. In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. If you take a picture of a 14 year old girl (age of consent is 15) and use Grok to give her bikini, or make her topless, then you are most definately producing and possessing CSAM. No abuse of a real minor is needed.

You don't see a huge difference between abusing a child (and recording it) vs drawing/creating an image of a child in a sexual situation? Do you believe they should have the same legal treatment? In Japan for instance the latter is legal.

He made no judgement in his comment, he just observed the fact that the term csam - in at least the specified jurisdiction - applies to generated pictures of teenagers, wherever real people were subjected to harm or not.

I suspect none of us are lawyers with enough legal knowledge of the French law to know the specifics of this case

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#73
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CSAM does not have a universal definition. Strange that there was no disagreement before "AI", right? Yet now we have a clutch of new "definitions" all of which dilute and weaken the meaning. > In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. No corroboration found on web. Quite the contrary, in fact: "Sweden does not have a legislativ…

> Even the Google "AI" knows better than that. CSAM "is [...]" Please don't use the "knowledge" of LLMs as evidence or support for anything. Generative models generate things that have some likelihood of being consistent with their input material, they don't "know" things. Just last night, I did a Google search related to the cell tower recently constructed next to our local fire house. Above the search results, Gemi…

Thanks. For a moment I slipped and fell for the "AI" con trick :)

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#74
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see a huge difference between abusing a child (and recording it) vs drawing/creating an image of a child in a sexual situation? Do you believe they should have the same legal treatment? In Japan for instance the latter is legal.

He made no judgement in his comment, he just observed the fact that the term csam - in at least the specified jurisdiction - applies to generated pictures of teenagers, wherever real people were subjected to harm or not. I suspect none of us are lawyers with enough legal knowledge of the French law to know the specifics of this case

This comment is a part of the chain that starts with a very judgemental comment and is an answer to a response challenging that starting one. You don't need legal knowledge of the French law to want to distinguish real child abuse from imaginary. One can give arguments why the latter is also bad, but this is not an automatic judgment, should not depend on the laws of a particular country and I, for one, am deeply shocked that some could think it's the same crime of the same severity.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#75
post #40
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CSAM does not have a universal definition. Strange that there was no disagreement before "AI", right? Yet now we have a clutch of new "definitions" all of which dilute and weaken the meaning. > In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. No corroboration found on web. Quite the contrary, in fact: "Sweden does not have a legislativ…

> - in any current law. It has been since at least 2012 here in Sweden. That case went to our highest court and they decided a manga drawing was CSAM (maybe you are hung up on this term though, it is obviously not the same in Swedish). The holder was not convicted but that is besides the point about the material.

> It has been since at least 2012 here in Sweden. That case went to our highest court

This one?

"Swedish Supreme Court Exonerates Manga Translator Of Porn Charges"

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/swedish-supreme-court-exoner...

It has zero bearing on the "Putting a bikini on a photo of a child ... is not abuse of a child" you're challenging.

> and they decided a manga drawing was CSAM

No they did not. They decided "may be considered pornographic". A far lesser offence than CSAM.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#76

> The prosecutor's office also said it was leaving X and would communicate on LinkedIn and Instagram from now on. I mean, perhaps it's time to completely drop these US-owned, closed-source, algo-driven controversial platforms, and start treating the communication with the public that funds your existence in different terms. The goal should be to reach as many people, of course, but also to ensure that the method and…

>I mean, perhaps it's time to completely drop these US-owned, closed-source, algo-driven controversial platforms

I think we are getting very close the the EU's own great firewall.

There is currently a sort of identity crisis in the regulation. Big tech companies are breaking the laws left and right. So which is it?

- fine harvesting mechanism? Keep as-is.

- true user protection? Blacklist.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#77
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of banning real CSAM is to stop the production of it, because the production is inherently harmful. The production of AI or human generated CSAM-like images does not inherently require the harm of children, so it's fundamentally a different consideration. That's why some countries, notably Japan, allow the production of hand-drawn material that in the US would be considered CSAM.

If libeling real people is a harm to those people, then altering photos of real children is certainly also a harm to those children.

I'm strongly against CSAM but I will say this analogy doesn't quite hold (though the values behind it does)

Libel must be as assertion that is not true. Photoshopping or AIing someone isn't an assertion of something untrue. It's more the equivalent of saying "What if this is true?" which is perfectly legal

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#78
post #37
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CSAM does not have a universal definition. Strange that there was no disagreement before "AI", right? Yet now we have a clutch of new "definitions" all of which dilute and weaken the meaning. > In Sweden for instance, CSAM is any image of an underage subject (real or realistic digital) designed to evoke a sexual response. No corroboration found on web. Quite the contrary, in fact: "Sweden does not have a legislativ…

"Sweden does not have a legislative definition of child sexual abuse material (CSAM)" Because that is up to the courts to interpret. You cant use your common law experience to interpret the law in other countries.

> You cant use your common law experience to interpret the law in other countries.

That interpretation wasn't mine. It came from the Court of Europe doc I linked to. Feel free to let them know its wrong.

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In November 2012, Epstein sent Musk an email asking “how many people will you be for the heli to island”. “Probably just Talulah and me. What day/night will be the wildest party on your island?” Musk replied, in an apparent reference to his former wife Talulah Riley. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/30/elon-musk... I think there's just as much evidence Clinton did as Musk. Gates on the other hand.

To my knowledge Musk asked to go but never actually went. Clinton, however, went a dozen or so times with Epstein on his private jet? Has the latest release changed that narrative?

Additionally Clinton is listed several times on the Lolita express flight logs, Elon never

Elon didn't ask to go, he was invited multiple times

Re: X offices raided in France as UK opens fresh investigation into Grok

#80
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is generating CSAM a speech issue? Its really doing a disservice to actual free speech issues to frame it was such.

The point of banning real CSAM is to stop the production of it, because the production is inherently harmful. The production of AI or human generated CSAM-like images does not inherently require the harm of children, so it's fundamentally a different consideration. That's why some countries, notably Japan, allow the production of hand-drawn material that in the US would be considered CSAM.

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