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Code is cheap. Show me the talk

nadh.in

71–80 of 237 posts

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#71

Talk is never cheap. Communicating your thoughts to people without the exact same kind of expertise as you is the most important skill. This quote is from Torvalds, and I'm quite sure that if he weren't able to write eloquent English no one would know Linux today. Code is important when it's the best medium to express the essence of your thoughts. Just like a composer cannot express the music in his head with English…

I don't think Linus is a people person. This is something which he talks about himself in the famous ted-ed video.

I just re-watched the video (currently halfway) & I feel like the point of Linux is something which you are forgetting but it was never intended to grow so much and Linux himself in the video when asked says that he never had a moment where he went like oh this went big.

In fact he talks about when the project was little. On how he had gratitude when the project had 10 people maybe 100 people working on it and then things only grow over a very large time frame (more than 25-30years? maybe now 35 just searched 34)

He talks about how he got other people's idea which he couldn't have thought of things themselves and when he first created the project he just wanted to show off to the world to look at what I did (and he did it mainly for both the end result of the project and programming itself too) and then he got introduced to open source (free software) by his friend and he just decided to have it open source.

My point is it was neither the code nor the talk. Linus is the best person to maintain Linux, why? Because he has been passionate over it for 25 years. I feel like Linux would be just as interested in talking about the code and any improvements now with maybe the same vigour as 34 years ago. He loves his creation & we love Linux too :)

Another small point I wish to add is that if talk was the only thing, then you are missing the point because Linux was created because hurd was getting delayed (so all talks no code)

Linux himself says that if the hurd kernel would've been released earlier, Linux wouldn't have been created.

So all talk no code Hurd project (which from what I hear right now is still a bit limbo as now everyone [rightfully?] uses linux) is what led to creation of linux project.

Everyone who hasn't watched Linus's ted ed should definitely watch it.

The Mind Behind Linux | Linus Torvalds | TED : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8NPllzkFhE

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#72
post #59

> Code was always a means to an end. Unlike poetry or prose, end users don’t read or care about code. Yes and no. Code is not art, but software is art. What is art, then? Not something that's "beautiful", as beauty is of course mostly subjective. Not even something that works well. I think art is a thing that was made with great care. It doesn't matter if some piece of software was vibe-coded in part or in full, if i…

Art is expression. What the software provides (an experience) for which the artist (software engineer) expresses in code.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#73
> because one is hooked on and dependent on the genie, the natural circumstances that otherwise would allow for foundational and fundamental skills and understanding to develop, never arise, to the point of cognitive decline.

After using AI to code, I came to the same conclusion myself. Interns and juniors are fully cooked:

- Companies will replace them with AI, telling seniors to use AI instead of juniors

- As a junior, AI is a click away, so why would you spend sleepless nights painstakingly acquiring those fundamentals?

Their only hope is to use AI to accelerate their own _learning_, not their performance. Performance will come after the learning phase.

If you're young, use AI as a personal TA, don't use it to write the code for you.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE is more like formula 1 where each race presents a unique combination of track, car, driver, conditions. You may have tools to build the thing, but designing the thing is the main issue. Code editor, linter, test runner, build tools are for building the thing. Understanding the requirements and the technical challenges is designing the thing.

is it? I really fail to see the metaphor as an F1 fan. The cars do not change that much; only the setup does, based on track and conditions. The drivers are fairly consistent through the season. Once a car is built and a pecking order is established in the season, it is pretty unrealistic to expect a team with a slower car to outcompete a team with a faster car, no matter what track it is (since the conditions affect…

Most projects don’t change that much either. Head over to a big open source project, and more often you will only see tweaks. To be able to do the tweaks require a very good understanding of the whole project (Naur’s theory of programming).

Also in software, we can do big refactors. F1 teams are restricted to the version they’ve put in the first race. But we do have a lot of projects that were designed well enough that they’ve never changed the initial version, just build on top of it.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#75

> Ignoring outright bad code, in a world where functional code is so abundant that “good” and “bad” are indistinguishable, ultimately, what makes functional AI code slop or non-slop? I'm sorry, but this is an indicator for me that the author hasn't had a critical eye for quality in some time. There is massive overlap between "bad" and "functional." More than ever. The barrier-to-entry to programming got irresponsibly…

This is the "artisanal clothing argument". I'd think there'll be a dip in code quality (compared to human) initially due to "AI machinery" due to its immaturity. But over-time on a mass-scale - we are going to see an improvement in the quality of software artifacts. It is easier to 'discipline' the top 5 AI agents in the planet - rather than try to get a million distributed devs ("artisans") to produce high quality r…

> industry machinery could match the average artisan or even beat the average

Whether it could is distinct from whether it will. I'm sure you've noticed the decline in the quality of clothing. Markets a mercurial and subject to manipulation through hype (fast fashion is just a marketing scheme to generate revenue, but people bought into the lie).

With code, you have a complicating factor, namely, that LLMs are now consuming their own shit. As LLM use increases, the percentage of code that is generated vs. written by people will increase. That risks creating an echo chamber of sorts.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#77
My latest take on AI assisted coding is that AI tools are an amplifier of the developer.

- A good and experienced developer who knows how to organize and structure systems will become more productive.

- An inexperienced developer will also be able to produce more code but not necessarily systems that are maintainable.

- A sloppy developer will produce more slop.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#78

> Ignoring outright bad code, in a world where functional code is so abundant that “good” and “bad” are indistinguishable, ultimately, what makes functional AI code slop or non-slop? I'm sorry, but this is an indicator for me that the author hasn't had a critical eye for quality in some time. There is massive overlap between "bad" and "functional." More than ever. The barrier-to-entry to programming got irresponsibly…

One issue is that tooling and internals have been optimized for individual people's tastes currently. Heterogeneous environments make the models spikier. As we shift to building more homogenized systems optimized around agent accessibility, I think we'll see significant improvements

Elegantly, agents finally give us an objective measure of what "good" code is. It's code that maximizes the likelihood that future agents will be able to successfully solve problems in this codebase. If code is "bad" it makes future problems harder.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#79
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A software engineer with an LLM is still infinitely more powerful than a commoner with an LLM. The engineer can debug, guide, change approaches, and give very specific instructions if they know what needs to be done. The commoner can only hammer the prompt repeatedly with "this doesn't work can you fix it". So yes, our jobs are changing rapidly, but this doesn't strike me as being obsolete any time soon.

I listened to an segment on the radio where a College Teacher told their class that it was okay to use AI assist you during test provided: 1. Declare in advance that AI is being used. 2. Provided verbatim the questions and answer session. 3. Explain why the answer given by the AI is good answer. Part of the grade will include grading 1, 2, 3 Fair enough.

This is actually a great way to foster the learning spirit in the age of AI. Even if the student uses AI to arrive at an answer, they will still need to, at the very least, ask the AI to give it an explanation that will teach them how it arrived to the solution.

Re: Code is cheap. Show me the talk

#80

I think if your job is to assemble a segment of a car based on a spec using provided tools and pre-trained processes, it makes sense if you worry that giant robot arms might be installed to replace you. But if your job is to assemble a car in order to explore what modifications to make to the design, experiment with a single prototype, and determine how to program those robot arms, you’re probably not thinking about…

> I know a lot of counter arguments are a form of, “but AI is automating that second class of job!” Uh, it's not the issue. The issue is that there isn't that much demand for the second class of job. At least not yet. The first class of job is what feeds billions of families. Yeah, I'm aware of the lump of labour fallacy.

It depends a lot on the type of industry I would think.
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