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Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

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Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#71

Post by koverstreet »

panarky wrote: post #68
prewett wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't encounter the Dao de Jing until later in life, but the opening bit has always seemed straightforward to me. I first saw it as "the way that can be described is not the Way", but also "the way that can be traveled is not the eternal Way". That is, the eternal (spiritual) Way cannot be concretized, just as a name is not the real thing. Or, given that this is HN, "the software development methodology that can b…

This is straight-up Baudrillard simulacra/simulation. The moment you say "Dao" (or "Agile", or "methodology"), you've already moved from the thing-in-itself to a sign living inside a sign system. That sign can be useful, but it can't be identical to what it points at. > “The Agile that can be PM’d is not Agile.” That’s exactly the stages of simulacra in miniature: - Faithful copy: "Agile" names a set of lived practic…

That's a reductionist take.

For a reductionist, it might be better understood as - step outside of your usual mode of thinking. Remember that you don't know everything. Or just - take time to stop and smell the flowers. Try to spend more time noticing and less time analyzing.

There are things that are difficult to communicate directly in the reductionist mode of thought - and are intended to have meaning at multiple levels of abstraction. You have to think a bit more laterally.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#72

Post by justanotherjoe »

Noaidi wrote: post #36
4ggr0 wrote: post #2

For people who like The Big Lebowski, there's "The Tao of the Dude" https://dudeism.com/taoofthedude/

Oh please stop. Love, Someone who studied Daoism for 16 years.

I'm sure. But can you explain more? Share that 16 years of knowledge, even a little bit?

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#73

Post by SolubleSnake »

The Tao Te Ching is sort of impossible to translate into modern English. I don't really understand it but I can speak and read Chinese and it doesn't make much sense to Chinese people either. It is the weirdest thing that it has become famous.

This is kind of how it translates in English:

'Light light moon green grass mountain snow sun together'

For an entire book. It's totally nonsensical but the writing in Chinese at that time was just a bit like that. Classical Chinese sort of seems to have been written more like the way rappers put together their battling rhymes sometimes - you aren't meant to understand it

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#74

Post by phendrenad2 »

raincole wrote: post #8
kittywantsbacon wrote: post #5

From the bottom: > This is a rendition, not a translation. I do not know any Chinese. I could approach the text at all only because Paul Carus, in his 1898 translation of the Tao Te Ching, printed the Chinese text with each character followed by a transliteration and a translation. My gratitude to him is unending.

Honestly, even if you know Chinese, it's very hard to translate Tao Te Ching into English. Hell, it's hard to translate it into Chinese. Even the first paragraph is controversial. For example this rendition says: > The name you can say > isn’t the real name. However, in a 5th century interpretation[0], it's more akin to: > The fame and wealth the mortals praise are not a natural state. (My extremely simplified paraph…

How can something translate into both of those things? The second translation doesn't have the concept of "saying" anything and the first translation says nothing about "wealth".

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#75

Post by jasomill »

riffraff wrote: post #32
lubujackson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done a similar "rendition" to a book of poetry, I agree it is not the same as translating directly. It does open up a question about the fuzziness of "what is even translation?" Especially when we talk about translating historic writing. Yes, not knowing the source language is a huge barrier. But so is not knowing specific cultural touchstones or references in the text. In-depth translations usually transliter…

For those with a passing interest in this topic and quite some patience, "le ton beau de Marót" by Douglas Hofstadter is a whole book of musings about translation, particularly of poetry. It's a fun book full of interesting linguistic trivia. The patience would be needed to get through the 50 or so translations of the same poem, all different and "wrong" in some way.

See also the preface[1] to Hofstadter's translation[2] of Eugene Onegin.

[1] https://jasomill.at/HofstadterOneginPreface.pdf

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-465-0209...

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#76

Post by __patchbit__ »

anthk wrote: post #59
prewett wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't encounter the Dao de Jing until later in life, but the opening bit has always seemed straightforward to me. I first saw it as "the way that can be described is not the Way", but also "the way that can be traveled is not the eternal Way". That is, the eternal (spiritual) Way cannot be concretized, just as a name is not the real thing. Or, given that this is HN, "the software development methodology that can b…

In Spanish we say "caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar" (roamer, there's no path, the path it's built upon walking".

One reading I came across claimed the author of `art of war' had his foot amputated in a form of punishment. You had to be careful with your language at court in those times.

It is possible to associate passages from the Tao Te Ching to memes that just pop up in your social media feeds. A native speaker and writer will have rich associations in the language you can get a sense of in the language used to cover Chinese philosophy at the SEP entries.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#77

Post by kccqzy »

o_____________o wrote: post #3

I picked up Tao Te Ching as an American teenager and was moved by how it cuts against the American faith in visible dominance and self-assertion, proposing a form of strength that is low, quiet, and unseen. It's much more than that of course, but that aspect had immediate impact on my thinking.

It’s a cultural thing. If a Chinese person steeped in that culture of “low, quiet, unseen” strength came to America as an immigrant, that person would likely not do very well. If the person immigrated as a child, schooling in America will quickly change that.

I don’t doubt that the aspect had immediate impact on your thinking, but I would be very surprised if it also had lasting impact on your behavior.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#78

Post by bamboozled »

ProllyInfamous wrote: post #63

I have the physical book, translated by Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English. Every night, I read one new passage — then every morning, I read that same passage again. Presuming you miss a few readings, you can then complete the entire Tao in less than three months (or: four times per year, cyclically). This gives you time to digest each passage, be it in dreams or daytime. Nobody will ever fully understand these texts. >#23 —…

Does the book describes binary mathematics (via the ying and yang) and how it can be used to describe basically all complexity and complex interactions ? Have you read that bit? I heard Alan Watts mention it and I thought it was interesting.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#79

Post by ProllyInfamous »

bamboozled wrote: post #78
ProllyInfamous wrote: post #63

I have the physical book, translated by Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English. Every night, I read one new passage — then every morning, I read that same passage again. Presuming you miss a few readings, you can then complete the entire Tao in less than three months (or: four times per year, cyclically). This gives you time to digest each passage, be it in dreams or daytime. Nobody will ever fully understand these texts. >#23 —…

Does the book describes binary mathematics (via the ying and yang) and how it can be used to describe basically all complexity and complex interactions ? Have you read that bit? I heard Alan Watts mention it and I thought it was interesting.

From Tao #42

>The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace yang.

>They achieve harmony by combining these forces.

...

>For one gains by losing.

>And loses by gaining.

----

From Tao #28

>Knowing light and staying dark, be a pattern to the world.

>Being the world's pattern of eternal unerring power is to go back again to boundlessness.

Re: Tao Te Ching – Translated by Ursula K. Le Guin

#80

Post by ProllyInfamous »

SolubleSnake wrote: post #73

The Tao Te Ching is sort of impossible to translate into modern English. I don't really understand it but I can speak and read Chinese and it doesn't make much sense to Chinese people either. It is the weirdest thing that it has become famous. This is kind of how it translates in English: 'Light light moon green grass mountain snow sun together' For an entire book. It's totally nonsensical but the writing in Chinese…

Note from UKLG (Tao#28):

>"The simplicity of Lao Tzu's language can present an almost impenetrable density of meaning. The reversals and paradoxes in this great poem are the oppositions of the yin and yang — male/female, light/dark, glory/modesty — but the knowing and being of them, the balancing act, results in neither stasis nor synthesis ... reversal, recurrence, are the movement, and yet the movement is onward."

Thanks for your literal character interpretation / perspective.

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