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EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

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Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#71

Post by afpx »

pousada wrote: post #62
mikaeluman wrote: post #51

The main issue as I see it is that we need food security in the EU. Especially high quality nutrious dense food like beef. And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs. The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.

What hurts EU farmers the most are the huge supermarket chains which control prices. The rules&regulations thing is an often cited meme but the price war is much more impactful. In fact we could produce for example in Germany milk in a sustainable and very environmentally friendly way if it would just cost a couple cents more, like 10 cents or even less. But consumers will basically riot if you raise the prices there…

Don’t you guys have farmer’s markets? I buy a lot of my stuff direct from the farmer.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#72

Post by pousada »

iagooar wrote: post #41
oytis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most importantly, Europe needs more trading partners after having lost Russia and now losing the United States. Second, I am happy about German (I suspect it's similar in other EU countries) farmers largely supporting the far-right getting a taste of a world without protectionism and regulations. Finally, I hope for lower grocery prices, not only for myself, but also because it makes the whole social situation less e…

Fair trade yes. Unfair trade no. And Mercosur is COMPLETELY unfair to European farmers. It imposes higher standards - and thus costs - on European farmers, while allowing South American farmers to produce with lower quality and adding forbidden substances to grow crops faster - and cheaper.

This is a common meme but wrong. The imported goods are subject to the same restrictions as those produced within EU.

What hurts EU farmers the most is the big supermarket cartel that controls prices and pushes farmers to produce more and more cheaply (and consumers that react extremely sensitive to every price increase, but that’s a more inconvenient truth)

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#73

Post by eigenspace »

mikaeluman wrote: post #51

The main issue as I see it is that we need food security in the EU. Especially high quality nutrious dense food like beef. And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs. The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.

Most of the sensitive food imports from Mercosur (including beef) are subject to quotas specifically to protect the domestic EU food production chain.

It's true that EU farmers are subject to a lot of burdens and costs, but I also think people are seriously underestimating just how effective a lot of the European agricultural sector is. In fact, this deal is probably going to result in a lot more export of high value, prestigious food items like cheeses and cured meats to South America, which could even have the surprising effect of increasing the amount of farm animals raised in Europe.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#75

Post by jltsiren »

iagooar wrote: post #21
dtech wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly mid take. This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies. Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very int…

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

If you want to use national security as a justification for subsidies, you need to be careful with what you are subsidizing. Only essential things should be subsidized. Non-essential things can be left to the market, or at least their subsidies require other justifications.

From a national security perspective, it is essential to provide basic nutrition to people when international trade is disrupted. Having access to food people enjoy eating is not essential. The viability of existing agricultural businesses is not essential. The preservation of cultural traditions related to food and agriculture is not essential. And so on.

It's also important to consider where the subsidies should be directed. Here in Finland, the explicit justification for agricultural subsidies has always been the assumption that food produced in "European countries that still have a strong farming industry" might not be available during a crisis.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#76

Post by dtech »

iagooar wrote: post #21
dtech wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly mid take. This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies. Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very int…

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

Meat is incredibly bad for food security. If this scenario happens we will have to stop nearly all meat production and become forcibly vegetarian, like some countries did in WW2.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#77

Post by embedding-shape »

onesandofgrain wrote: post #74

Cheaper coffee this must mean for europe.

And it's already pretty cheap, how much cheaper can it get? Usually you'd pay somewhere around 1-1.2 EUR for an espresso, 1.5-2.0 EUR for "fancier" coffees, at least here in Spain (depends a lot on exactly where though).

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#78

Post by pousada »

afpx wrote: post #71
pousada wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hurts EU farmers the most are the huge supermarket chains which control prices. The rules&regulations thing is an often cited meme but the price war is much more impactful. In fact we could produce for example in Germany milk in a sustainable and very environmentally friendly way if it would just cost a couple cents more, like 10 cents or even less. But consumers will basically riot if you raise the prices there…

Don’t you guys have farmer’s markets? I buy a lot of my stuff direct from the farmer.

We do have those markets but they are much more expensive (for exactly that reason that they aren’t subject to the price gauge as the supermarkets are). They are essentially for some (rich) hippies/yuppies only.

I can’t speak for other EU countries but in Germany people will buy the cheapest food almost always. Quality or farmer welfare is a minor concern for the majority.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#79

Post by wiether »

afpx wrote: post #71
pousada wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hurts EU farmers the most are the huge supermarket chains which control prices. The rules&regulations thing is an often cited meme but the price war is much more impactful. In fact we could produce for example in Germany milk in a sustainable and very environmentally friendly way if it would just cost a couple cents more, like 10 cents or even less. But consumers will basically riot if you raise the prices there…

Don’t you guys have farmer’s markets? I buy a lot of my stuff direct from the farmer.

Of course we do

But most people don't want to make the effort to go there instead of buying everything at the supermarket

Even though they still say that they want our farmers to have decent working conditions and incomes

But even the farmers will eat cheap imported lentils over local ones

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#80

Post by redox99 »

3ple_alpha wrote: post #45

Removing tariffs on beef specifically is a serious mistake, there's no need to incentivise any more production of that. Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.

Beef from Argentina is basically as good as it gets in terms of animal welfare.

Most are raised under extensive systems (not confined feedlots). They live on large grasslands (hundreds of acres) where they roam freely and graze pastures.

That's completely unlike things like Chicken which live their whole life in over crowded poultry houses, never seeing the outdoors, or even daylight.

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