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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

lalitm.com

71–80 of 168 posts

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well has that worked? Has it backfired? I think you both are right in different ways.

I’ve suffered adverse consequences for it. I didn’t take the other advice in this thread, though: to not put emotional investment into it.

To me

> You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help.

is incompatible with

> not put emotional investment into it

I'll only help because I care (maybe it's the person, the larger goal, etc). To me, everything behind the experience that I call "care" is an emotional one. If I don't care, then that means it doesn't matter to me, which literally means there's no emotional response/motivation to do it. Is this odd?

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#72
post #44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” I often say "Sometimes, you have to let the manager fail." Some managers don't like being told their ideas won't work. If you refuse or argue, you are seen as the reason his idea failed. I've found what works best with them is to proceed with the work, but keep them informed very frequently, so they can see how things evolve, and w…

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

It does sound depressing, along with the "money" replies.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#73
The dynamics are exactly right, but I would say engineers can't "let" "politically bad" projects fail, because fixing that is, in a very real sense, above their paygrade. That responsibility lies with the executives.

The engineers' role should mostly be as technical advisors, i.e. calling out bad projects for technical reasons (UX, architecture, etc.) But even the seniormost engineers do not have the corporate standing, let alone political cachet, to call out or fix political issues (empire building, infighting between orgs, etc.) They can and should point out these conflicts to leadership (very diplomatically, of course) but should bear no responsibility for the outcomes.

However, as an engineer you should ABSOLUTELY be aware of these dynamics because they will impact your career. Like when the project is canceled with no impact delivered.

The example given of the latent turf war between the product and platform teams might have been avoided via a very clear mandate from senior leadership about who owns what exactly. This would probably have involved some horse-trading about what the org giving up its turf gets in return. (BTW if you've ever wondered "Why so many re-orgs" this is why.) That this didn't happen is a failure on the execs' part.

As an aside, I know this happens in every large company, but somehow it appears to be a lot more common at Google? Or at least Googlers are more open about it. E.g. I observed something similar on that recent post about lessions from Google: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46488819

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#75
> Your attention is finite, but the capacity for a large company to generate bad ideas is infinite. Speaking from experience, getting too involved in stopping these quickly can make you very cynical about the state of the world. And this is really not a good place to be.

This also applies to the capacity of the industry to generate bad (and evil) ideas.

Now that we're one of the biggest-money fields, there is no end of people thinking/behaving badly.

You'll wear yourself out, calling out all of it.

For example, I fled cryptocurrency entirely when it got overrun with bad faith. But I don't intend to flee AI, and so will have to ration the criticism I have for abuses there.

> The nuclear option is [...]

BTW, be careful in what context you use this idiom. It doesn't always translate well outside the US. (I realized this as soon as the words came out of my mouth, under perhaps the worst possible circumstances.)

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#76
post #51
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans think this way. This isn't a cultural thing, it's human nature. We like positive people and dislike negative people. Ignoring the fact that political capital is a thing won't make it go away.

The goal is not to ignore human nature, but to build better tools for orgs to get feedback and act on it before it corrodes them on the inside. Government is the biggest of them all - fix this and maybe you can create government that works for you, instead of blowing taxpayer dollars like a leaky bucket. Humans in an organizations are like cells or organs in a body. Every country, team, and organization iterates on a…

Are there any good examples of governments that work really well? I don't think so.

I think this just shows that we'll all be better off when we can make AI smart enough so we can put it in charge of everything.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#77
post #18

Excellent advice for the 'House of Cards' politics of big tech, but it’s essentially corporate pacifism. In any other setting you can't afford to watch money and motivation burn just to stay 'politically solvent'. (Lalit is very good at fitting complex corporate dynamics in a single blog post though.)

I’ve never worked in big tech, but I have seen the same dynamics play out in much smaller orgs.

If you’re constantly nitpicking and expressing concerns, you become “that person” who’s constantly negative about other people’s ideas. After a while people tune out; they already know that you’ll find “problems.” We all know these people. No one really likes working with them. Thus they’re _not effective_ at what they’re trying to do.

Ultimately you mostly get credit for shipping things that work, and only rarely for preventing the mistakes of other people.

At its core, what the blog post is saying is: keep your powder dry for when it matters. Not every problem is going to make the company insolvent. Not every concern will prove correct. Pick your battles strategically.

It’s good advice no matter the size or nature of the org.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#78

Definitely a big tech thing I don’t miss. At a startup everyone is trying to make the company succeed vs pet projects, so giving advice about architectural decisions or helping fellow engineers with areas you have more expertise in is often welcomed. There are always pros and cons, but that type of culture is so much more fun. Even on hard days I love working with people who want to help each other.

Even in startups, sometimes you’ve just got to let the consequences of the things you’ve warned about happen. I’ve lost too much sleep and fought too many battles and lost too much clout over the years trying to make sure bad things didn’t happen. “Nobody could have foreseen this” is still said, even if there’s a ton of evidence, recommendations, pleading, etc, to keep it from happening.

Yeah, I’m sure it happens everywhere. And I’m no expert, I worked in state government, fed R&D, big tech and a startup and I feel like the big tech environment was a lot more of the “I need an audience to make my point” in a big staff or strategy meeting vs the small swarms where we just need to get this thing working environment. But it depends on the startup and depends on the people. I’m sure the same goes for teams in big tech but I assume the politics plays more in survival there.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#79

Definitely a big tech thing I don’t miss. At a startup everyone is trying to make the company succeed vs pet projects, so giving advice about architectural decisions or helping fellow engineers with areas you have more expertise in is often welcomed. There are always pros and cons, but that type of culture is so much more fun. Even on hard days I love working with people who want to help each other.

Not always. I had to learn early in my career that sometimes when the founder says they want your honest opinion on something, your expertise, they're lying and just what you to affirm their ideas. You don't, they get mad, and eventually they have to do a layoff or fire you, simply for disagreeing Everyone likes to pretend it doesn't happen. But ask around and you'll find many people have experienced it

I haven’t been burned yet, but I’ll keep that in mind!

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. Employment is a business transaction not a transaction based on ethics viewpoints

Just because there's no law saying you have to have ethics in software development doesn't mean you shouldn't have ethics in software development.

No one's talking about building ethically-problematic software projects here like software to aid despotic regimes, harm human rights, etc. We're talking about business projects that senior engineers believe will fail either in execution or in the market. There's nothing unethical about just letting these things fail, especially if they aren't even a project you're assigned to work on. It's upper management's responsibility to assess risk and pick good project to assign resources to; as a senior engineer, your only job is to advise them when consulted. If upper management is incompetent and doing a bad job choosing projects, then your recourse is to go looking for a better-run company, not telling your executives how to do their jobs.
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