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Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

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Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#71

Post by wewxjfq »

alecco wrote: post #62
ofrzeta wrote: post #49

When you go to the German Wikipedia page about the Fukushima incident you can learn about the misleading reporting in Germany, even in the public broadcasting like ARD or renowned newspapers like Süddeutsche Zeitung ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuklearkatastrophe_von_Fukushi... ). Many articles were published that claimed 18.000 casualties from the nuclear disaster while in reality it was the Tsunami.

The Greens and allies have been scaremongering on nuclear power since the 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens#Energy_... > After the Chernobyl disaster, the Greens became more radicalised and resisted compromise on the nuclear issue.

They got 8% of the votes in 1987, up from 6% in 1983, didn't even make it past the five-percent hurdle in 1990 - so what justifies the obsession with the Greens, when the large majority of Germans rejected nuclear energy after Chernobyl? Why must all nuclear energy threads on HN pretend a fringe party ruled Germany with an iron fist?

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#72

Post by ZeroGravitas »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #51

Exiting nuclear power early was wrong. Wasting trillions on handouts from taxpayer money on new built nuclear power today is wrong. Just look at the French: Flamanville 3 is 7x over budget and 13 years late on a 5 year construction schedule. The subsidies for the EPR2 are absolutely insane. 11 cents/kWh fixed price and interest free loans. The earliest possible completion date for the first reactor is 2038 . France i…

Even the refurbs of existing nuclear have high price tags.

France keeps upping estimates for their refurbs and Ontario just announced price hikes to refurb theirs and mess around with SMRs.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#73

Post by general1465 »

wewxjfq wrote: post #71
alecco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greens and allies have been scaremongering on nuclear power since the 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens#Energy_... > After the Chernobyl disaster, the Greens became more radicalised and resisted compromise on the nuclear issue.

They got 8% of the votes in 1987, up from 6% in 1983, didn't even make it past the five-percent hurdle in 1990 - so what justifies the obsession with the Greens, when the large majority of Germans rejected nuclear energy after Chernobyl? Why must all nuclear energy threads on HN pretend a fringe party ruled Germany with an iron fist?

When issue will start going widespread, mainstream parties will latch onto it too to prevent voters from switching. It was not Green who decided to exit the nuclear, it was CDU government.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#74

Post by alecco »

wewxjfq wrote: post #71
alecco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greens and allies have been scaremongering on nuclear power since the 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens#Energy_... > After the Chernobyl disaster, the Greens became more radicalised and resisted compromise on the nuclear issue.

They got 8% of the votes in 1987, up from 6% in 1983, didn't even make it past the five-percent hurdle in 1990 - so what justifies the obsession with the Greens, when the large majority of Germans rejected nuclear energy after Chernobyl? Why must all nuclear energy threads on HN pretend a fringe party ruled Germany with an iron fist?

In 2011 the Greens won key conservative regions with their Fukushima fearmongering and outright lies (see GP comment). They drove massive anti-nuclear protests. And with all this they forced Merkel to u-turn on nuclear or she would lose power.

"Policy Reversal: In May 2011, just months after extending reactor lives, Merkel's government announced a total phase-out of all nuclear plants by 2022."

This is literally what we are discussing in this comment thread. Facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa...

> Eight German nuclear power reactors (Biblis A and B, Brunsbuettel, Isar 1, Kruemmel, Neckarwestheim 1, Philippsburg 1 and Unterweser) were declared permanently shutdown on 6 August 2011, following the Japanese Fukushima nuclear disaster.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#75

Post by luke5441 »

sfifs wrote: post #60
V__ wrote: post #24

Merz will say anything if it somehow benefits him and doesn't concern himself with facts. > German Chancellor Friedrich Merz, admitted recently that Germany’s departure from nuclear energy was a serious strategic mistake, saying the policy has made the country’s energy transition “the most expensive in the entire world.” Even if that were the case, nuclear had no impact on the cost of the transition. > eliminating nu…

This take misses the real un-stated strategic mistake which is what I'm pretty sure Merz actually means but can't say aloud. Shutting down nuclear reactors means you lose a source of plutonium that can be diverted to weapons manufacturing. You also lose nuclear engineers and workers with skills and knowledge to fabricate with fissile materials which you need to manufacture those weapons. Similarly, the reason so many…

We still have a large nuclear enrichment facility (Urenco) and research reactors, so this is not what Merz means.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#76

Post by gregbot »

panick21_ wrote: post #42
funkify wrote: post #31

renewables will win the long game. batteries are becoming dirt cheap, decentral production wins amidst clusterfucking climate catastrophes. solar and wind already are cheaper than anything else. the markets will adjust, simple as that. any push to prolong the transition simply benefits fossil stakeholders.

Batteries are not actually becoming dirt cheap. And if you do the math of how much you need, even if batteries get cheaper by 50% (and that is unlikely just based on materials cost) its nowhere near enough. > decentral production wins amidst clusterfucking climate catastrophes If you do the math you will see Germany could have actually saved money if they had build nuclear in the 2000s. > solar and wind already are c…

>even if batteries get cheaper by 50% (and that is unlikely just based on materials cost) its nowhere near enough.

Could you share this math?

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#77

Post by znpy »

CjHuber wrote: post #59
znpy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d call it stupidity rather than masochism. It wasn’t that hard to see that energy needs were only going to increase rather than diminish. And not because of ai datacenters, but (to make a simple example) for example because of the already ongoing at the time push for the electrification of the automotive industry. It’s also crazy that the initiative was supposed at all by environmentalists. Anyway, props to Mertz f…

Anyway, props to Mertz for admitting the mistake, we’ll see if they will fix it somehow That‘s the thing. Everyone knew it was costly, nobody ever thought it was good strategically. If he now says it’s a „strategic mistake“ that‘s laughable, did he think it was strategically clever before? If so he was the only one. The whole issue is that Germany overestimated its own resilience and economic power, which is deterior…

autonomy, for a nation, is hardly a strategic mistake

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#78

Post by CjHuber »

znpy wrote: post #77
CjHuber wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyway, props to Mertz for admitting the mistake, we’ll see if they will fix it somehow That‘s the thing. Everyone knew it was costly, nobody ever thought it was good strategically. If he now says it’s a „strategic mistake“ that‘s laughable, did he think it was strategically clever before? If so he was the only one. The whole issue is that Germany overestimated its own resilience and economic power, which is deterior…

autonomy, for a nation, is hardly a strategic mistake

So you are saying this has the potential to make Germany more autonomous and less dependent?

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#79

Post by amai »

Why? Germany is not allowed to have nuclear weapons (2 + 4 contract). And this is the only reason nowadays to build nuclear power plants. The UK openly admits that this is the only reason why they build a very expensive nuclear power plant. Otherwise nuclear power is simply much too expensive.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#80

Post by flowerthoughts »

Mythli wrote: post #25

I'm from Germany and wanted to be a nuclear engineer. My mom to this days has a sticker on her car "Nuclear, no thank you". And she is an educated woman, a professional chemist. It was what bought political victory at the time for the CDU, thats why it was done.

Curious what her argument against it is.
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