Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#71

Post by minitrollster » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:55 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #66

talmand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership. Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

>Unless they changed it recently...

Saturn doesn't exist anymore.

From Wikipedia: "Following the withdrawal of a bid by Penske Automotive to acquire Saturn in September 2009, General Motors discontinued the Saturn brand and ended its outstanding franchises on October 31, 2010. All new production was halted on October 1, 2009."[1]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#72

Post by bdbrash » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #66

talmand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership. Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

I thought the Saturn brand was discontinued.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#73

Post by jbigelow76 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #36

jbigelow76 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? Because then they run the risk of getting Amazon'd or Wal-Mart'd.

I'm not sure what being Amazon'd or Wal-Mart'd is. Are you talking about commoditization?

Cars already are a commodity, albeit an expensive one. When it comes down to getting from point A to point B they are all interchangeable.

"Amazon'd" or "Wal-Mart'd" was my shorthand way of saying that increased efficiency in the distribution channel + leverage from volume purchases would drive margins down for auto makers and put dealerships in jeopardy since the don't add any value.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#74

Post by revelation » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:57 PM UTC

camiller wrote: post #31

jakubp wrote: post #6

I'm confused. Is this article saying that in the US it's illegal for a maker of the product to sell the product to whomever he wants? How is that helping anyone but the dealerships?

Say for example there are five Chevy dealerships in the greater Omaha area. If General Motors were allowed to own one itself it could give itself discounts internally such that it could undersell the other dealers and put them out of business. Once the competition was gone it could then raise prices harming consumers. Competition is good for consumers and the laws in question are aimed at protecting consumers. Yes I…

Or General Motors gives internal discounts, that kills off the middlemen ("Chevy dealerships"), competition from other brands keeps the prices low. Competition is essential here, you can't just ignore it and state brand loyality.

In this case, the laws that keep dealerships alive are hurting you as a customer; the many testaments of bad experiences with deceiptful salesmen are evidence of that.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#75

Post by tomrod » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:58 PM UTC

jmaygarden wrote: post #51

aleyan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > How is that helping anyone but the dealerships? > It's not. That was my initial though as well, but I came up with at least one case where survival of the dealerships is critical to an open market place. If all stores were owned by car manufacturers, that would be a significant barrier to entry of new automakers. Not only do new entrants have to build a car company, but now they have to create a new distribution…

Then shouldn't the law simply ban such pricing practices? That seems like a less oppressive solution. Banning an important industry from selling its own products just sounds wrong.

It's not my area of expertise. But there have been lawsuits against vertical exclusivity in car dealership. These slides seem to go into it:

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/docs/...

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#76

Post by jrockway » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:59 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #22

tomrod wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 3? I figured Radioshack/Bestbuy belong in this category in the long run. Would be interesting discussion on what industries denizens of HN think will fall in this manner.

Radio Shack made themselves obsolete. I don't think Best Buy is obsolete, but merely needs a restructuring. Radio Shack used to be great when you were working on a project and just needed one more part; a capacitor, a motor/servo, a PIC, etc. I don't need another phone reseller, I don't need useless RC cars, I don't need odd TV remotes. I need an electronics store that sells electronic parts. Best Buy is great for re…

I think Radio Shack is back to that business model. I heard you can buy Arduinos there now.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#77

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:01 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #66

talmand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership. Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

[deleted]

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#78

Post by jbigelow76 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:01 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #34

jbigelow76 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? Because then they run the risk of getting Amazon'd or Wal-Mart'd.

Why is that a risk? What's wrong with ordering a car from Amazon? Or do you mean it's a risk from the dealers' perspective? Because I get that and personally don't care.

I'd love to order a car from Amazon too. My last car buying experience was a multi-day beat down, in the end the best I can summarize it: "I probably got screwed, but they didn't screw me as hard as they wanted to."

I don't care about the dealers either, but as another poster stated, dealers have their own lobbying groups to make sure that the people that make the laws do care.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#79

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:02 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

buying a car through a plan negotiated either by your employer, union, or other relationship to the automaker, usually sets limits on what a dealer can charge.

Example, a purchase I made this year specified the sale price of the car (lower than invoice you normally see) plus I think $100 documentation fee. No other fees were permitted.

I have seen X, S, and other other plan, for Fords, I am quite sure GM is the same if not Chrysler as well. When I bought a Mazda in 08 I only paid sales tax on the price Mazda set, not the dealer.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#80

Post by revelation » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:03 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #20

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here.

So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.