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A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

arxiv.org

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Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#71

Post by mothballed »

strken wrote: post #61
SimianSci wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

Given that most PhD students pay for their earlier education and then do underpaid grunt work as part of their program, the US should already be reaping the benefits. It's only failing to reap them in the sense that more could be gained if they stayed, and that a citizen would be more likely to stay.

Having a fraction of US PhD leave might be a good thing for cross-pollination. The fact that they've left doesn't mean their contacts and relationships vaporize. This could help America stay abreast and integrated with foreign research.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#72

Post by d_burfoot »

Second sentence of abstract:

> Leave rates are lower in the life sciences and higher in AI and quantum science but overall have been stable for decades

The US has been completely dominant in technology innovation for the last several decades. So, the answer is no: the loss of 1/4 of the STEM scientists is not important.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#73

Post by alephnerd »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #67
alephnerd wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, it is a significant reverse brain drain. Like 20-25 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find tenure track CS faculty at most America programs let alone a major program lime Cal or UIUC consider returning to a program like Shanghai Jiao Tong or IIT Bombay compared to today. It has upskilled academia in those countries, but we also lost talent who could have remained here.

It is it really our talent though? The US has been so addicted to China and India for STEM talent for so long that...what did they expect was going to happen? And the effect is much more prominent for China than India: China has a lot of money to dump into modernizing while India is still a relatively poor country. Imagine what will happen when India gets richer as well?

Based on personal experience (friends who either entered academia/industry or me being the son of white collar immigrants to the US) I'd say large portion want to return to China and India due to family ties, but a number would have stayed in the US if immigration wasn't such a PITA - especially because companies and programs don't really like filing for an O-1s unless they found a unicorn.

You hit the nail on the head on developing countries not being as poor anymore, and opportunties proliferating which reduces the pull factor, but there are a decent amount of academics and professionals who would gladly work in the US if given the opportunity and it wasn't such a headache.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#74

Post by thatfrenchguy »

kragen wrote: post #68

The grad-student system in science at US R1 universities is sort of like a dollar auction. You know how a dollar auction works? I have a dollar bill, and I'll give it to whoever bids the highest for it—as long as both they and the #2 bidder pay me their final bids. The #2 bidder gets nothing. Bidding can start at 5¢. Once the bid goes over a dollar, the two remaining bidders are no longer competing to win free money;…

> The least the US could do would be to show a little more gratitude by guaranteeing them permanent US residency after they graduate, but they don't even get that—many people are kicked out of the US, where they've spent most of their adult life, when they wash out of the academic pipeline.

And they often have no choice but to work in academia too, because Academic H1B are lottery exempt but not Industry H1B and they aren't transferable. Pretty messed up.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#76

Post by kragen »

cavisne wrote: post #65

“40% move to China” This is the plan not a coincidence. China pays huge “grants” to their citizens to come to the US, get educated, work in big tech/science, then bring it all home.

Probably almost 40% of them came from China in the first place, because China has almost 40% of the candidates who are accepted to US grad programs in the first place. And, even without any grants, returning to China probably seems a lot more appealing than returning to Nigeria, Paraguay, or Bangladesh, whose acceptance rates are already handicapped by the much lower quality of undergraduate education available there.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#77

Post by bell-cot »

lateforwork wrote: post #10
bell-cot wrote: post #3

[flagged]

If they leave never to come back, Chick-fil-A will not do well. Time to replace the restaurant manager.

How high are you figuring Chick-fil-A's total lifetime revenue from a top-1% customer might be?

The big research university near me charges foreign STEM students over $50K/year in tuition.

And comparing the physical facilities of that university to the local Chick-fil-A location - I suspect the university's business model is considerably more lucrative. Even though students generally graduate and leave.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#78

Post by exceptione »

cjbenedikt wrote: post #70
exceptione wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US got talent for free for years; young people whose upbringing and education has been paid by/in a foreign country. The most expensive formative years had been paid for by the sponsoring country. > The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development The rhetoric is learned from a well…

Tried to follow your link. It says: "This program is not available in your country". Wonder why...censorship?

Maybe try a vpn? It is an European production, I am not sure, but there could be some rights limitation. It is available till end of January. Protonvpn is free and has EUR servers.

Bit of a shame for the hassle though, the documentary is very good and the topics it touches are rarely highlighted. So give it an other try.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#79

Post by mmooss »

SimianSci wrote: post #14
slwvx wrote: post #7

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

> isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development

I think the rhetoric is the cause, not the response to that sense (besides the obvious feedback loop). Internationalism created a world of unprecendented - literally in human history - freedom, peace and prosperity. You can see what things look like with even the beginnings of nationalism.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#80

Post by s5300 »

resters wrote: post #42

It's the second (so far bc he hasn't ruled out a third) presidential term for a strongly anti-immigrant / anti-immigration president who has a lot of support domestically. Immigrants are being chased out of the US in record numbers. Many of my friends with brown skin (second generation immigrants) are worried their kids will be harrassed by ICE, etc. The sad fact is that there are a LOT of Americans who deeply resent…

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