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Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

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Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always a bit weary of theoretical stuff like this. The best way to learn a new language is to move there (preferably somewhere where people don't speak or don't want to speak your native language). I know people that didn't speak a lick of Spanish, moved to Spain, and in a year they're basically fluent. Of course, still struggling with stuff they might not be used to: gendered language, conjugations, and so on. B…

It's so strange to hear you and GP talking as if no one has ever learned a foreign language without moving to another country. The US military has been teaching translators for decades at the Defense Language Institute in California, and people learn languages to conversational fluency in university, albeit inefficiently. Duolingo is a game meant to be fun and collect subscription fees, not designed to teach any usef…

> It's so strange to hear you and GP talking as if no one has ever learned a foreign language without moving to another country.

I speak three languages fluently (two prior to moving to said country; English, for example, is not my native tongue), so that's a weird assumption to make. With that said, I still think it's the most efficient way to learn a language, especially given how almost everyone's a nomad (especially in tech) these days.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#72

As someone who spent 2+ years building one, I would turn away now if you're looking for traction or sustainability ( https://couplingcafe.com ). Though I don't regret it and learned enough to speak to my in-laws. My retention numbers are decent, but I just haven't done the marketing bit yet, and am currently taking a break. Language learning apps are the ultimate sand-pit for solo developers thinking they can offer s…

This is exactly what I ever dreamed of without even realizing it. I am not sure my partner (the one speaking the language I don’t know) will have the patience to do the lessons, but I’ll definitely try the app!

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#73
post #63
post #13

Not doing subscriptions for an app that has ongoing server costs is going to bite you, you may want to reconsider that. Your biggest issue is going to be that language learning for adults is largely an unsolved problem. I know people with 1000+ day streaks on Duolingo who are nonetheless not fluent, and from everything I’ve read, it seems clear that spaced-repetition techniques are not sufficient (and possibly not ne…

It is a solved problem, Assimil or Michel Thomas (in person) have been making people conversational within a week of dedicated study. Plenty of language learners have reached C2 in 6+ languages including me. But it's not fun and certainly not appable (and these apps never offer anything beyond flashcards)"appable".

how does one get to conversational level in a week? I would love to know!currently anki-flashcarding my way through italian...

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#74
That approach might be at odds with the market, but I don't think it's at odds with learning. I strongly dislike duolingo - it's gamification kept me pre-occupied for a while without noticing that I wasn't making any progress learning the language. When I figured that out, I felt cheated by the app!

A long time ago I used a beta app that was being built by a high school teacher that I really enjoyed. It basically had a bunch on YouTube videos with a few different type of exercises. Unfortunately I had a busy schedule and couldn't keep up and I don't think the app was successful.

My day job is development in the education space. If you care about building a learning app, read up on learning theory / pedagogy. A concept I really like wrt language learning is "comprehensible input". Other things to consider with languages is that hearing native speakers is extremely important.

ps. wrt to gamification - I wish that people took the parts of games that I do like when they gamify an experience - open worlds, exploration, story telling, low stakes, save points, fun!

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#75

As someone who spent 2+ years building one, I would turn away now if you're looking for traction or sustainability ( https://couplingcafe.com ). Though I don't regret it and learned enough to speak to my in-laws. My retention numbers are decent, but I just haven't done the marketing bit yet, and am currently taking a break. Language learning apps are the ultimate sand-pit for solo developers thinking they can offer s…

As a life long language learner, I wanted to say this is a unique and clever approach, but I also agree that it is really challenging to monetize. Especially in a way that is respectful to users because they are creating a lot of content with very personal data.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#77

I have worked in edtech industry for 10+ years now. Every time the word "gamification" comes up in a conversation (with users, customers, internet posts), it reminds me of the quote from the great Charlie Munger "Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome". Basically, gamification is supposed to incentivize the learner but a majority of training/learnings are unfortunately mostly about "checking a box" espe…

I wonder about having gamification as something you can turn off. I am working on a math practice web application. I have not added any gamification to it. I am ok with minimal gamification like Math Academy does with experience points or the sound effects and trophies you get in Khan Academy, but Duolingo is too much. A friend told me he would like gamification in it. Any thoughts on making gamification something you can opt out of?

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#78
I am building a calm, serious English vocabulary learning application for mostly adult, motivated individuals. The opposite experience to Duolingo. No dancing mascots or childish sound effects. I am betting on attracting young professionals, academics, white-collar types that like books, language and the experience of a white page with classic, black typography.

Strangely, through iterative prototyping, the app evolved into something that my testers (and teachers) are calling... a game. I see it as a good thing, and I am adapting this language. The free version is about 'play,' and the paid version is about 'study'.

Reach out if you would like to chat!

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#79

As someone who spent 2+ years building one, I would turn away now if you're looking for traction or sustainability ( https://couplingcafe.com ). Though I don't regret it and learned enough to speak to my in-laws. My retention numbers are decent, but I just haven't done the marketing bit yet, and am currently taking a break. Language learning apps are the ultimate sand-pit for solo developers thinking they can offer s…

love the idea of using the partner to personalize. kind of genius actually
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