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Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

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Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#71

Post by limagnolia »

vermon wrote: post #12
rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

EU implementation of age verification is actually base don zero knowledge proofs https://ageverification.dev/

That page says ZKP are a "future roadmap" thing, to be maybe possible wink wink maybe implemented int he "future".

Currently, it does not implement ZKP, and further requires proprietary Google Play Integrity use, making it an absolute toxic cesspool.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#72

Post by [deleted] »

ipython wrote: post #67
nickthegreek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we please stop blaming parents?? No? They are surely somewhere in the top 3 influences that can actually have a meaningful difference here.

Do you have kids? I'm not being glib. Yes, I have set up technical guardrails. But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose. When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to t…

[deleted]

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#73

Post by nickthegreek »

ipython wrote: post #67
nickthegreek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we please stop blaming parents?? No? They are surely somewhere in the top 3 influences that can actually have a meaningful difference here.

Do you have kids? I'm not being glib. Yes, I have set up technical guardrails. But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose. When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to t…

> But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose.

You are at fault.

> When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before you catch him, you lose.

You are at fault.

> When you have parental controls set up on your wifi network, but it's trivial to shut the wifi off and use the cellular network instead, you lose.

This can be controlled via Parental Controls on iOS via Screen Time. If you chose not to, you are at fault.

> When your friends all have personal cell phones but you don't, you lose.

Not sure what you want anyone to do about this. I recognize that life isnt fair.

> Parents have their hands full enough. Make it easier for parents, don't poke at them with a pointy stick.

No one is arguing against this. They are arguing how to implement this.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#74

Post by ipython »

hellojesus wrote: post #64
wiredfool wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 16 yr old just had his phone update and apply his old screen time settings from 4 or 5 years ago. Sorry kiddo, don’t remember the screen time password. Now why they came back, and weren’t working before? The restrictions were so full of holes that they didn’t really work as anything other than a speedbump.

I don't have an iPhone so haven't tried any of this, but can you not treat your kids devices like you would a business's? It looks like normal user device enrollment with device management is optional, hence why I think business probably makes sense. https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/apple-business-manager... The you can force all traffic through a proxy. https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/deployment/dep7ba46f…

All I can think of when reading this is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#75

Post by surgical_fire »

miguelbemartin wrote: post #13

In my opinion, access to internet should always be behind a device controlled by an adult. And it should be this adult's responsibility to set appropriate restrictions for minors.

This is something I am conflicted about as a parent.

My daughter is still a baby, so the problem is still a few years away. But I don't know how to best handle it.

In some ways, I see social media as more poisonous to the brain than alcohol or tobacco. So, forbidding - or heavily limiting - internet access sounds like a plan.

On the other hand, part of me being a parent is teaching her how to navigate the world. And part of that, wether I like or not, is using the internet. Having contact with the communication tools that exist.

The world is full of sons of bitches. If I don't teach her how to deal with that, I would be raising an idiot.

Still, a problem for the future me to ponder over.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#76

Post by SunshineTheCat »

bennyp101 wrote: post #43
SunshineTheCat wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should then make laws that parents must tell their kids to clean their room. Next we can make laws that parents must tell their children to eat their veggies. What about chore laws? Teeth brushing laws? Stop arguing with your sister laws! More laws!

There's a giant difference between stopping kids having full reign on what is now essentially the whole world of information - and instant access to strangers, than there is making sure they eat healthy, help out, and don't have bad teeth .... but I'm sure you know that :)

The only difference is in parents who raise and protect their kids without needing a law...and people who want government to be mom and do it for them and are willing to make everyone else suffer for it :)

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#77

Post by earlyreturns »

Just make the isp the gateway. Nobody under 18 needs the internet. If a parent lets their kid onto the internet, prosecute the parent. It’s pretty simple really. People just want to pretend it’s harder than it is because they have some conflict because removing under 18 from the net cuts into profits or makes it harder to parent. Boo hoo.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#78

Post by ipython »

nickthegreek wrote: post #73
ipython wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have kids? I'm not being glib. Yes, I have set up technical guardrails. But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose. When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to t…

> But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose. You are at fault. > When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before yo…

Glad to hear your life is so simple that you can track all this while working full time jobs, cooking healthy meals, driving the kids to the various activities and travel sports (because you could be arrested if you let your kids walk anywhere), making sure they complete their homework on time, monitoring their interactions with friends, tracking new tech trends to find new threats (is my kid interacting with character.io or ChatGPT in an unhealthy way?)... I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

And yes, you are arguing against "making it easier for parents" - my original post literally advocated for legislating tech companies to make controls available, effective, and easy to use. If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me. Instead you're nitpicking my ability to parent my kids. Exactly the behavior that isn't working, so please continue - I'm sure it'll work now.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#79

Post by nickthegreek »

ipython wrote: post #78
nickthegreek wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose. You are at fault. > When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before yo…

Glad to hear your life is so simple that you can track all this while working full time jobs, cooking healthy meals, driving the kids to the various activities and travel sports (because you could be arrested if you let your kids walk anywhere), making sure they complete their homework on time, monitoring their interactions with friends, tracking new tech trends to find new threats (is my kid interacting with charact…

> Instead you're nitpicking my ability to parent my kids.

You willingly invited that conversation. I obliged.

> If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me.

Get over yourself. You have not made an attempt to ask for a solution from me to find common ground. You keep trying to remove yourself from the responsibilities of parenting in the modern world as shown in the examples you put forth and your initial post asking that parents not shoulder the blame for what is happening under their nose. Surely they have some level of culpability.

I believe that it would be good for Parental Controls on devices to have a toggle to say that the phone is being used by someone in under 13, or someone 14-18 (whatever bands you want). When enabled, this flag should be available to locally installed apps and remote connections. Laws can be passed that tell remote connections how they must act when receiving this flag. This keeps me, an free adult, from being subjected to more corpo/govt tracking.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#80

Post by sam_lowry_ »

vermon wrote: post #12
rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

EU implementation of age verification is actually base don zero knowledge proofs https://ageverification.dev/

Isn't .dev a TLD operated by Google?

How European can it be?

This looks like a private consortium of usual suspects Tales and T-Systems squandering taxpayers money, not an official thing.

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