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Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

blog.ecosia.org

71–80 of 85 posts

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. Training an AI is energy intensive but highly efficient. Running inference for a few hundred tokens, doing a search, stuff like that is a triviality. Each generated token takes the equivalent energy of the heat from burning ~.06 µL of gasoline per token. ~2 joules per token, including datacenter and hosting overhead. If you get up to massive million token prompts, it can get up to the 8-10 joules per…

I’m curious where you got any of those numbers. Many laptops use Compared to traditional computing it seems to me like there’s no way AI is power efficient. Especially when so many of the generated tokens are just platitudes and hallucinations.

W stands for Watts, which means Joules per second.

The energy usage of the human body is measured in kilocalories, aka Calories.

Combustion of gasoline can be approximated by conversion of its chemicals into water and carbon dioxide. You can look up energy costs and energy conversions online.

Some AI usage data is public. TDP of GPUs are also usually public.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#72

Looks interesting. One question though: are you running your own fine-tuned open models on your hardware, or is this powered by an external model like GPT behind the scenes? Curious how independent the stack really is.

> I’m based on OpenAI’s GPT-4 architecture, which is a proprietary large language model. It’s designed to understand and generate human-like text across many topics and tasks. While the underlying model itself isn’t open source, it’s widely used for applications requiring advanced natural language understanding and generation. If you want, I can share more about how it works or about alternatives in the AI landscape!

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI isn’t especially environmentally unfriendly I think the actual answer is more nuanced and less positive. Although I appreciste how many citations your comment has! I'd point to just oe, which is a really good article MIT's technology review published about exactly this issue[0]. I'd make two overall points firstly to: > when you have the opportunity to use human labour or AI, AI is almost certainly the greener o…

I think this article is a good response to the MIT article: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/reactions-to-mit-technolog... > AI normally generates marketing copy for someone in marketing, not by itself, and even when if it does everything itself, the marketing person might stop being employed but certainly doesn't stop existing and producing co2. Sure, but it does it a lot quicker than they can, which means they spe…

There's probably a decent chance that training an LLM produces more carbon than producing stranger things

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did, you clearly didn't. > For instance, the emission footprint of a US resident is approximately 15 metric tons CO2e per year22, which translates to roughly 1.7 kg CO2e per hour Those 15,000kg of CO2e are emitted regardless of that that person does. The article also makes assumptions about laptops that are false. >Assuming an average power consumption of 75 W for a typical laptop computer. Laptops draw closer to 1…

It says that ignoring the human carbon use, just their computer use during the task far outweighs the AI energy use. So your response “are you planning on killing the human?” makes zero sense in that context. “They are wrong about the energy use of a laptop” makes more sense , but you didn’t say that until I pushed you to actually read it. 75W is not outlandish when you consider the artist will almost certainly have…

75w is nuts actually. I measured my _desktop_ setup about 10 years ago including two monitors and idle was around 35w. It also doesn't make sense to include idle of all peripherals since you would be using them for chatgpt as well.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. Training an AI is energy intensive but highly efficient. Running inference for a few hundred tokens, doing a search, stuff like that is a triviality. Each generated token takes the equivalent energy of the heat from burning ~.06 µL of gasoline per token. ~2 joules per token, including datacenter and hosting overhead. If you get up to massive million token prompts, it can get up to the 8-10 joules per…

I’m curious where you got any of those numbers. Many laptops use Compared to traditional computing it seems to me like there’s no way AI is power efficient. Especially when so many of the generated tokens are just platitudes and hallucinations.

I made some assumptions based on H100s and models around the 4o size. Running them locally changes the equation, of course - any sort of compute that can be distributed is going to enjoy economies of scale and benefit from well worn optimizations that won't apply to locally run single user hardware.

Also, for AI specifically, depending on MoE and other sparsity tactics, caching, hardware hacks, regenerative capture at the datacenter, and a bajillion other little things, the actual number is variable. Model routing like OpenAI does further obfuscates the cost per token - a high capabilities 8B model is going to run more efficiently than a 600B model across the board, but even the enormous 2T models can generate many tokens for the equivalent energy of burning µL of gasoline.

If you pick a specific model and gpu, or Google's TPUs, or whatever software/hardware combo you like, you can get to the specifics. I chose µL of gasoline to drive the point across, tokens are incredibly cheap, energy is enormously abundant, and we use many orders of magnitude more energy on things we hardly ever think about, it just shows up in the monthly power bill.

AC and heating, computers, household appliances, lights, all that stuff uses way more energy than AI. Even if you were talking with AI every waking moment, you're not going to be able to outpace other, far more casual expenditures of energy in your life.

A wonderful metric would be average intelligence level per token generated, and then adjust the tokens/Joule with an intelligence rank normalized against a human average, contrasted against the cost per token. That'd tell you the average value per token compared to the equivalent value of a human generated token. Should probably estimate a ballpark for human cognitive efficiency, estimate token/Joule of metabolism for contrast.

Doing something similar for image or music generation would give you a way of valuing the relative capabilities of different models, and a baseline for ranking human content against generations. A well constructed meme clip by a skilled creator, an AI song vs a professional musician, an essay or article vs a human journalist, and so on. You could track the value over context length, length of output, length of video/audio media, size of image, and so on.

Suno and nano banana and Veo and Sora all far exceed the average person's abilities to produce images and videos, and their value even exceeds that of skilled humans in certain cases, like the viral cat playing instrument on the porch clips, or ghiblification, or bigfoot vlogs, or the AI country song that hit the charts. The value contrasted with the cost shows why people want it, and some scale of quality gives us an overall ranking with slop at the bottom up to major Hollywood productions and art at the Louvre and Beethoven and Shakespeare up top.

Anyway, even without trying to nail down the relative value of any given token or generation, the costs are trivial. Don't get me wrong, you don't want to usurp all a small town's potable water and available power infrastructure for a massive datacenter and then tell the residents to pound sand. There are real issues with making sure massive corporations don't trample individuals and small communities. Local problems exist, but at the global scale, AI is providing a tremendous ROI.

AI doombait generally trots out the local issues and projects them up to a global scale, without checking the math or the claims in a rigorous way, and you end up with lots of outrage and no context or nuance. The reality is that while issues at scale do exist, they're not the issues that get clicks, and the issues with individual use are many orders of magnitude less important than almost anything else any individual can put their time and energy towards fixing.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#76
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the Netflix number include the energy cost of manufacturing all the cameras/equipment used for production? Energy for travel for all the crew involved to the location? Energy for building out the sets?

Are they building nuclear reactors to power those?

Would be nice if they did.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#77
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this article is a good response to the MIT article: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/reactions-to-mit-technolog... > AI normally generates marketing copy for someone in marketing, not by itself, and even when if it does everything itself, the marketing person might stop being employed but certainly doesn't stop existing and producing co2. Sure, but it does it a lot quicker than they can, which means they spe…

There's probably a decent chance that training an LLM produces more carbon than producing stranger things

I’ll readily admit that I don’t know the first thing about television production, but that doesn’t seem plausible to me. Moving lots of physical objects around takes far, far, far more work than shuffling bits, and a large proportion of that can’t come from sustainable energy sources. Think about things like flying the cast to shoot on location in Lithuania, for instance. Powering and cooling servers isn’t in the same ballpark.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says that ignoring the human carbon use, just their computer use during the task far outweighs the AI energy use. So your response “are you planning on killing the human?” makes zero sense in that context. “They are wrong about the energy use of a laptop” makes more sense , but you didn’t say that until I pushed you to actually read it. 75W is not outlandish when you consider the artist will almost certainly have…

75w is nuts actually. I measured my _desktop_ setup about 10 years ago including two monitors and idle was around 35w. It also doesn't make sense to include idle of all peripherals since you would be using them for chatgpt as well.

Why do you think idle is the relevant figure here? They will be actively using the computer and its peripherals.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in the comments seem confused about this with statements like “greenest AI is no AI” style comments. And well, obviously that’s true It’s not true. AI isn’t especially environmentally unfriendly, which means that if you’re using AI then whatever activity you would otherwise be doing stands a good chance of being more environmentally unfriendly. For instance, a ChatGPT prompt uses about as much energy as watc…

Glad to see someone refute the AI water argument, I'm sick of that one. But I do not see how the displacement argument fits. Maybe you can elaborate but I don't see how we can compare AI usage to watching Netflix for any length of time. I can't see a situation where someone would substitute watching stranger things for asking chatGPT questions? The writing and illustrating activities use less energy, but the people o…

> I can't see a situation where someone would substitute watching stranger things for asking chatGPT questions?

Really? A bored kid can’t play around with ChatGPT instead of watching Netflix?

You can substitute any other activity if you like. Netflix was just an example.

Re: Ecosia: The greenest AI is here

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious where you got any of those numbers. Many laptops use Compared to traditional computing it seems to me like there’s no way AI is power efficient. Especially when so many of the generated tokens are just platitudes and hallucinations.

I made some assumptions based on H100s and models around the 4o size. Running them locally changes the equation, of course - any sort of compute that can be distributed is going to enjoy economies of scale and benefit from well worn optimizations that won't apply to locally run single user hardware. Also, for AI specifically, depending on MoE and other sparsity tactics, caching, hardware hacks, regenerative capture a…

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