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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#71

Post by triceratops »

riskable wrote: post #46
triceratops wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

There is a well-known effect where segregating kids into gifted VS non-gifted harms the education of the non-gifted while only having a marginal impact on the gifted: https://ncrge.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/982/2019/04... Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In the long term, having gifted programs results in a handful of accelerated s…

I mean that's nice and all. But then you can also get behavioral issues from gifted students who feel stifled. Their needs aren't less important than the other students'.

Kids usually don't learn "school" things like math, reading, and science from each other. They learn behaviors. Kindness, cooperation, competition, integrity, working hard, not being disruptive etc. Having a gifted track for part of the day doesn't disrupt that learning.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#72

Post by FatherOfCurses »

jackallis wrote: post #4

".....In 2020, system leaders voted to phase standardized-test scores out of admissions decisions. They argued that the tests worsened racial divides and unfairly privileged wealthy students. But SAT and ACT scores are the most reliable predictors of a student’s math ability, the report found...."

Standardized tests are reliable predictors of students' abilities to solve standardized tests, which is not necessarily a 1-1 correlation with aptitude in that field. It is much like how your ability to sort a binary tree in a development interview isn't a 1-1 correlation with your ability to effectively upgrade your production website's Angular to the latest version.

My wife works in private college admissions counseling, so I've been privy to a lot of conversations around these issues over the years.

The article is paywalled, but I feel that in this sentence the author is using all reasons used against standardized testing to criticize the elimination of standardized math testing.

The concerns around racial divides have been mainly in the non-math portion of the SAT's, where it's been found that students with a non-white background don't choose the "right" answer on ambiguous questions because they don't have the same shared experience that would make the "right" answer obvious to someone with a white background. Its inclusion here sounds like the author is trying to inject a little anti-woke hysteria into her argument.

Wealth leading to increased standardized test scores is a very real thing. Many of us have taken multiple choice tests where we've known that the best answer isn't necessarily the "right" answer, and that in order to pass the test we have to select the answer the test is looking for. The SAT and ACT are littered with these questions and there are test prep companies who have decades of industry knowledge that they provide their clients with to get a boost on their scores. No amount of non-profit or public school provided test prep can compete with that.

As someone else commented, someone with an 800 on their SAT math will get admitted 99 percent of the time. Colleges are always very open about their admissions criteria and students are always free to choose to apply or not based on those.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#73

Post by NickC25 »

randycupertino wrote: post #29
NickC25 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically enough, they just got a Pentagon contract for 6th generation fighters.

Benefits of moving their HQ to Washington DC for closer proximity to lobbying starting to pay off! Relocating corporate to DC puts their execs within arm's reach of the ones who approve their contracts, oversee it's safety regulations and bail it out when the plane's software causes crashes.

Sadly and surprisingly, the quality and lifetime costs of the finished product is completely irrelevant here.

Yet this product is also the cornerstone of our national defense infrastructure.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#74

Post by [deleted] »

TrackerFF wrote: post #61

Let's be clear though, there's quite a difference in doing problems related to working memory, mental computation, etc. under time constraints - usually what you get when taking standardized tests, aptitude tests, IQ tests, etc. - and solving "actual" real world math problems, like mathematical modelling, numerical methods, and what have you. I'm sure if I walk around in the office and ask people a problem like "Car…

[deleted]

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#75

Post by giancarlostoro »

Ekaros wrote: post #59
giancarlostoro wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more time passes the more I hate publicly traded companies. I feel like the stock market rots companies.

Also the same seems to extend to things when private companies discussed. Nothing is enough you cannot be happy with company making million in post tax profit a year. Next year you must do two million, then 4 and 8 and so on... Even not attempting this is somehow failure for some people...

It feels more skewed for public companies for me. There's definitely "well off" small private companies that have good returns (mom and pop shops) and keep going and making their customers happy for decades, and those aren't an issue. There'll definitely be 'evil' private companies, but something about the stock market ruins companies. You are too dependent on the perception of your company and the markets reaction to it and your decisions. Investors do a lot of knee jerk selling. Meanwhile billionaires swoop in and purchase a chunk of your company at a discount.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#76

Post by nohuck13 »

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students.

39% got this right:

    Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100
34% got this right:

    Find 13/16 ÷ 2.
2% got this right:

    If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b
https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#78

Post by akramachamarei »

riskable wrote: post #46
triceratops wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

There is a well-known effect where segregating kids into gifted VS non-gifted harms the education of the non-gifted while only having a marginal impact on the gifted: https://ncrge.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/982/2019/04... Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In the long term, having gifted programs results in a handful of accelerated s…

On the contrary, the study you cite found no significant effect either way for either group. From the last page: "we find that gifted grouping does not help or hurt the achievement growth of gifted students nor does it help or hurt the achievement growth of non-gifted students" (emphasis mine.) This certainly does not imply that separating gifted tracks results in a lot more struggling students.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#79

Post by judahmeek »

We need to redefine math as procedural logic (like imperative programming for humans).

That way, we can defend the study of mathematics as a form of discipline for the human mind that has benefits beyond the knowledge gained.

The meta-process for solving any mathematical problem is the same as any other form of project management.

Or maybe we should first try to teach kids the value of project management & then try to get them to apply those principles to math problems?

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#80

Post by Aurornis »

corpMaverick wrote: post #41
jackallis wrote: post #4

".....In 2020, system leaders voted to phase standardized-test scores out of admissions decisions. They argued that the tests worsened racial divides and unfairly privileged wealthy students. But SAT and ACT scores are the most reliable predictors of a student’s math ability, the report found...."

IMHO. It is futile to level the field with the wealthy. They will always have the better opportunities, education, connections, etc. They will find a way. But we should keep trying to give more opportunities to the less fortunate. Better education, remedial classes, free school lunches, child credits, etc. We do that by asking the wealthy to contribute more. Not by taking away their advantages.(e.g. Admission tests)

> Not by taking away their advantages.(e.g. Admission tests)

Admissions tests are actually not as big of a driver for the academic advantage of the wealthy. Especially at flagship institutions a lot of it is simply traced back to legacy admissions, athletics, and extra-curricular activities. Those latter two are more gamed by the wealthy than anything.

Removing admission tests and focusing only on the application is actually a huge boon to wealthy families who want to get their children into the best universities because it removes the hard part (having to learn enough to do well in exams) and replaces it with things that are easy to game, like writing essays and getting a track record of doing extra-curriculars.

Standardized tests actually make it easier for lower income families to compete for spots for academically advanced children because they’re measuring academic advancement. Even if it’s not a perfect measure, it’s way better than substituting non-academic things that are so easily gamed by the wealthy.

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