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Where do the children play?

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Re: Where do the children play?

#71

Post by manc_lad »

ensocode wrote: post #23

a bit off but it sometimes feels like a self-reinforcing loop in Western societies: We have fewer children because we optimize so hard for money, stability, and personal security. But because we have fewer children, each child becomes “economically and emotionally precious.” And the more precious they become, the more afraid we are to let them take risks, explore freely, or just do their own thing. The end result is…

This summarises my thoughts as well. People used to give away children that were too much of a burden. With higher mortality, some were also not expected to make it.

We're in a societal place where we have set the bar high in terms of an expected level of education and quality of life for our kids. kids are expensive and we've grown the population massively. There is also a social stigma associated with having lots of kids in Western countries.

I worry about my kids. But im always fascinated when they stretch the boundaries and show me how resilient they are. So I let them push limits but explain the pros and cons hoping they build their own feedback loops with some sense of perspective.

It's a delicate balance as a parent. I'm consistently fascinated how others parent. It's amazing how changes in parental style can be generational and show how long the changes will take to change.

Re: Where do the children play?

#73

Post by eastbound »

ensocode wrote: post #23

a bit off but it sometimes feels like a self-reinforcing loop in Western societies: We have fewer children because we optimize so hard for money, stability, and personal security. But because we have fewer children, each child becomes “economically and emotionally precious.” And the more precious they become, the more afraid we are to let them take risks, explore freely, or just do their own thing. The end result is…

This is not a standalone loop, it is initiated by external factors which are bigger: De-industrialization of the West, with the social changes it implies (feminism, gentrification, many things including the single-child phenomenon). It will go away if the world changes its equilibrium — maybe with AI — for the better or worse.

Re: Where do the children play?

#74

Post by johnisgood »

b112 wrote: post #35
AndrewDavis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an aside. Yesterday I was in a shopping centre (ie a mall) and a bunch of kids ran through the food court, maybe 10 of them all around the 9-12 A grumpy lady shouted at them "kids you shouldnt be running!" I turned to whom I was eating with and our discussion could be summarised as "kids should be running. The problem isn't they're running, the problem isn't even directly where they're running. Where they're…

No? I grew up in a rural area, with fields and places to run... and run I did. A nearby huge city had a mall. City being 30k people. Yet left in that mall, with 10 friends, I'd run there too.. until chastised. No real difference 50 years ago, in a rural area with a mall than now. Groups of kids running tend to bump into things, fall into people, excited kids aren't known for taking care. It's been typical for at leas…

It does not even have to be urban areas. We have parks all around the city. Our schools have playgrounds. Everything is still there from when I was a kid, i.e. ~20 years ago.

Re: Where do the children play?

#75

Post by kitd »

One thing not mentioned is the effect of Covid and lockdowns.

On the one hand, my youngest was just getting into gaming with friends when the first lockdown started. I will be forever grateful that he did as his social life hardly seemed to suffer and he just carried on playing online, shouting and yelling with them just as much as if he was outside at a playground.

My teenage daughters had a much harder time of it though, as neither were into gaming and lost a lot of treasured contact with friends. Both suffered poor exam results as a result and have struggled to stay in touch with friends since.

The other aspect is those babies and toddlers who grew up in lockdown with no peer interaction at all. AIUI, they are still having a terrible time adjusting to school and normal social interaction.

Re: Where do the children play?

#76

Post by jddj »

gyomu wrote: post #55
retube wrote: post #19

As a parent, I relate to all this. Great piece. When the kids were babies we had the standard debate of move to the countryside for fresh air and gambolling in the fields etc. But so glad we stayed in London, the kids have so much freedom with public transport they can organise their own meet ups and activities and go running around all over town without any parental assistance or intervention at all. Whereas elsewhe…

Wait, how old are your kids, that they gallivant around London on their own? Are we talking about teenagers? Because yeah, I agree with you that in that sense cities are better than the often car-centric countryside for teenagers; but for young kids (elementary school and below, which is what the article covers) it's a very different equation.

Why? Plenty of elementary aged kids use the tube

Re: Where do the children play?

#77

Post by johnnyanmac »

jiggawatts wrote: post #61

Yeah well, we have one kid, and we're too old to have another. He's the only grandchild on both sides of the family. He has no cousins, first or second. That's apparently the new normal in many countries. Of course he's going to live a sheltered life! It's easy to tell parents to let their kids roam free, but that advice is to copy the behaviour of parents that had ten kids. I said "had", because on average, two of t…

>our very civilization would need to change back to the era of every family having half a dozen or more kids.

Let's try improving public transportation, making more walkable communities, and encouraging independent exploration first. If those don't work, then sure. We can try the Shinzo Abe initiative to make big families.

Japan has had this issue for longer than the US, but it is not impacted the same way in terms of kids socializing.

Re: Where do the children play?

#78

Post by master-lincoln »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #70
Arainach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but no. You shouldn't be running in crowded areas like food courts (or indoor areas not specifically created for athletics), and playing smug semantic arguments like that doesn't help. The kids aren't running because they're unable to go outside. They're running because no one's been enforcing that they act within the standards of basic decency. Kids should be screaming and singing sometimes, but you wouldn't…

>and playing smug semantic arguments like that doesn't help. How is it semantic? They go outside and now they are running in a giant parking lot. They go a bit further and now you're a bad parent for not keeping an eye on your kid. Tell them to sit down and play on a tablet and you're also a bad parent. There's no winning here. >you wouldn't tell someone in the library not to hush them. I don't consider a mall the eq…

If you let your kids run around in giant parking lots I would argue you are a bad parent. That seems like asking for an accident.

> Tell them to sit down and play on a tablet and you're also a bad parent.

Yes. If this is the alternative to playing in parking lots that comes to your mind first, I really wonder what kind of experiences you had.

> There's no winning here.

Ever heard of parks?

Re: Where do the children play?

#79

Post by goodcanadian »

jimbob45 wrote: post #22
ensocode wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate. Nice article. We had that same debate and ended up moving to the countryside. Surprisingly, it worked out well. + real forests. With today’s e-bikes, even hills or longer distances aren’t really a blocker for kids anymore. In the end, it feels like the bigger factor is how you organize daily life, not whether you’re in a city or in a rural area.

Whitewashing motorcycles as e-bikes scares me more than anything else for the next generation.

Legal e-bikes are fine. The ones you are complaining about are probably illegal, not that there is any real enforcement.

Re: Where do the children play?

#80

Post by johnnyanmac »

pseudonymcoward wrote: post #14

As a society we find violence or harm against children to be extremely shocking and tragic. As a society we would do almost anything to prevent it. Giving children the kinds of freedoms discussed in this article would lead to some harm coming to them. Accidents, violence, kidnap, etc. Therefore, society won't give them those freedoms. This tendency has been exagerated by mass media in the modern era. Every single cas…

>As a society we find violence or harm against children to be extremely shocking and tragic. As a society we would do almost anything to prevent it

The moment Sandy Hook happened and US society just shrugged at it, we relinquished our ability to use this dynamic for anything serious.

We can't pretend to care about kids while treating their murders as an inevitability of life and not something to reform over.

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