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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

constitutionofinnovation.eu

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#71

Post by xp84 »

stego-tech wrote: post #26

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here? ). Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to…

> Europe…issues… can still be traced back to unresolved wealth pumps and neoliberal policies weakening the state and labor force in favor of business and billionaire interests

Is it your position that Europe just hasn’t done socialism hard enough? Can you point to an example of a country who has successfully done what you’d like to see?

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#72

Post by xp84 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B…

I don’t know about Spain, but when I did some brief research it looks like senior software engineers in the UK make often substantially under £100,000. Away from London even £60,000. Most seniors at my company in the US make about £150,000. £50-70k of incremental salary pays for a hell of a lot of health insurance premiums and retirement contributions.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#73

Post by [deleted] »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #30
Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

"I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy" I think Europe could do much better without destroying safety nets. Starting a business should be easier and hiring people should be easier too. And in general a little more ambition couldn't hurt.

[deleted]

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#74

Post by otikik »

aniviacat wrote: post #61
otikik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens I am afraid that is not a problem exclusive to the United States. Perhaps it is more prevalent there, I don't have the numbers, but it also happens in Europe. What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions. > I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy. Support…

> What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions. I don't know if you meant to exclude this using the word "usually", but Germany has a backdoor for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in its constitution [1]. And it's not just enshrined in the constitution, it is actually active law [2]. [1] In the German constitution, Article 12 (3), it says…

I meant “most European countries don’t”. I confess I didn’t know about Germany in particular.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#75

Post by otikik »

xp84 wrote: post #68
fijiaarone wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 0.0001% of economic output in the USA is performed by penal labor, mostly by non-incarcerated people (e.g. court mandated community service such as road cleanup as penalty for traffic violations).

The people who are offended by the practice of prison labor will never let that issue go, even though it’s opt-in — you have to commit felonies in order to go to prison.

Or people who have incentives to put you in prison will find the felonies for you

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#76

Post by xp84 »

vatsachak wrote: post #49
mothballed wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just live like a European? The cost of a Latvian investment visa is something like the price of an average new car. It's obtainable to most anyone gainfully employed in skilled labor in the USA. Virtually anyone here that wants one can get it and move there.

Okay, besides being of Latvian descent, why would one want to move from the US to Latvia?

Especially given that odds are better than 50% that you will find yourself in a new, larger Russia at some point in the next 5-10 years. Not cheering the prospect, but it seems like Putin knows the US won’t get involved in Europe anymore, and therefore Russian expansion into all former Soviet territory, at minimum, just makes sense.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#77

Post by [deleted] »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7
Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?

[deleted]

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#78

Post by spwa4 »

What is never mentioned in articles like this is that the post-war period was a truly exceptional period in one respect: literally almost everything was supply-limited. A bit less so in the US than in Europe.

Now it's the opposite: almost everything is demand-limited. If you asked a good economist "what factory needs building?", the answer would be none. Or the answer would be something like "the EU is about to outlaw calculator imports from China, build that factory".

One of these environments makes it much, much harder to grow.

Obviously this is a general trend, not a rule.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#79

Post by trashb »

BobbyTables2 wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B…

Yes, but can you eat out once a week without breaking the budget on a European salary?

yes you can, there are European cultures where eating out more than once a week is common.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#80

Post by mothballed »

hexbin010 wrote: post #59
vatsachak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, besides being of Latvian descent, why would one want to move from the US to Latvia?

Exactly. I think people think it means you get an EU passport immediately or something and can spend 364 days a year in any EU country?? You only get a Schengen visa and are restricted to 180 days total outside of Latvia, inside the Schengen. But you can do that without a Latvian residence permit... AIUI it's 10 years to get an EU - sorry, Latvian - passport and for an individual year to count towards that you need 1…

Other than years to citizenship, isn't that the same deal anywhere in EU?

The point is getting a residence permit in EU country is step 1, and step 1 is accessible to fairly average white collar US worker who wants to move to the EU.

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