Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis' • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#71

Post by greenyoda » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:01 PM UTC

jquery wrote: post #23

I'm for skilled immigration, but can we please, please rethink the H1B program? At the very least, don't make it so the individual goes out of status the day they leave their job. Give them time to shop around. And get rid of the fee/paperwork every time they switch jobs. Raise the fee to $50k and apply it to the first employer that sponsors them only. More of the risk of holding an H1B needs to go to the first emplo…

"At the very least, don't make it so the individual goes out of status the day they leave their job."

This would do a lot to level the playing field between U.S. and H1B workers: if employees can't easily switch jobs, their employers can pay them low salaries for long hours. From the employers' point of view, however, captive workers are a feature, not a bug. If they had to pay H1B workers salaries that were competitive with domestic workers, they'd stop lobbying for more H1B visas and start hiring and/or training domestic workers.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#72

Post by rayiner » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:03 PM UTC

canistr wrote: post #64

rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a market. The wages are too low if they can't get the number of workers they want, and they should go higher until they can get the number of workers they want.

But that's exactly what's already happening. What's missing from the equation is the "skilled" aspect. You can't just hire anybody. A tech firm needs to hire tech people who can do the job. The current problem in the United States is that the supply of people is high but the supply of skilled tech people is low. So the problem you're facing is high-wages for skilled tech workers (even for immigrant tech workers) but…

MSFT doesn't have to hire just anybody. If they pay more than Google, etc, they'll draw people away from those companies. If they pay more than JP Morgan and Goldman, they'll draw people away from those companies. If they pay more than the law firms that significant numbers of CS people leave engineering for, they'll draw people away from those companies. If the whole industry raises salaries to compete, that will convince more people to go into engineering.

Here is MSFT's basic problem. The kind of people they want to hire often have better options. I left software engineering because I didn't like the constant layoff/hire cycle, the compressed salary scales at the top end, the need to get an MBA to go into management tracks, the lack of benefits, etc. In law I'm making more money even after student loans, and have far more headroom. I have an office with a door that closes and a secretary. I don't work exclusively with men. I work in a downtown high-rise, not some god-foresaken suburban office park. Based on my experience, I told my brother to stay out of STEM, and he took his physics degree to an investment bank. If some bright kid asked me to help him choose between CS and banking/consulting/law/medicine, I'd absolutely push him to the latter.

Tech companies need to get over their aversion to competing with each other for talent. They need to get over this "no poaching" "non compete" bullshit and stop trying to get the government to train their employees on the taxpayer dime. If they want to hire top-notch people away from other industries, they need to start paying competitive salaries and offering competitive benefits and amenities.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#73

Post by WiseWeasel » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:06 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #54

WiseWeasel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can hardly be blamed for not wanting to go live in rainy Seattle, work under someone as uninspiring as Steve Ballmer, and put up with awful stack ranking BS.

The stack ranking BS is (allegedly) a thing of the past, and the rain in Seattle is overblown. There are plenty of US cities that get more rain than Seattle. I won't challenge your opinion about Steve Ballmer, though.

You made me curious, so here's a list of US cities with more average rainy/snowy days per year than Seattle[1]:

  223: Juneau, Alaska
  209: Mt. Washington, N.H.
  169: Buffalo, N.Y.
  163: Olympia, Wash.
  161: Caribou, Maine
  155 (tied, interestingly): Cleveland, Ohio
  155: Seattle-Tacoma, Wash.

At 37 inches of rain per year, it's not a particularly high volume of rain; it's just spread out over a lot of days. San Francisco is down at 63 rainy days and 20 inches per year, for comparison.

[1] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762183.html

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#74

Post by jquery » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

trustfundbaby wrote: post #47

jquery wrote: post #23

I'm for skilled immigration, but can we please, please rethink the H1B program? At the very least, don't make it so the individual goes out of status the day they leave their job. Give them time to shop around. And get rid of the fee/paperwork every time they switch jobs. Raise the fee to $50k and apply it to the first employer that sponsors them only. More of the risk of holding an H1B needs to go to the first emplo…

Raise the fee to $50k and apply it to the first employer that sponsors them only. I think thats pretty unrealistic and I'm hoping that $50k was a typo ... my first h1b was by a small firm who would most definitely have turned me down at that price point. An important change that I think could be made with the h1b would be to allow people to get into Green card status after 2 years of being in continuous h1b status ..…

> An important change that I think could be made with the h1b would be to allow people to get into Green card status after 2 years of being in continuous h1b status ... irrespective of company. That way h1-b hires aren't used as pawns in lowering wages and abused because they can be forced to do things that an American hire would never do.

This is a good idea. My wife has been on H1B for four years and is no closer to a green card via the H1B path than when she started. It's a joke. She has a Ph.D. in CS, she's been in the USA for 11 years, and her only realistic path to a green card turned out to be marriage. Meanwhile, she's been used and abused by employers and seeing her mentally and emotionally break down due to H1B abuse is difficult to watch.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#75

Post by luser001 » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

panda_person wrote: post #66

luser001 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I'm too lazy to look into this, but intuitively it makes sense to me. Healthcare is basically an "exception handler" (default state of humans is to be health), whereas STEM is the "real code". I would expect more "real code" than "exception handlers". Also sq. ft. of physical space devoted to healthcare (e.g., hospitals) seems to be far less than sq. ft. of space devoted to STEM (e.g., of…

If by healthcare do you mean all employees who work in hospitals (including many low paying positions), or more prestigious, higher paying positions like RNs, MDs, etc? And what about dentists and other allied health fields?

I would definitely exclude administrators, janitors etc (because these jobs exist in companies that are "in STEM" such as a Microsoft).

I would include medical staff like nurses, doctors, pharmacists, psychiatrists, physiotherapists (not fitness trainers), licensed nutritionists, dentists, dentists' assistants etc.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#76

Post by malandrew » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:19 PM UTC

What I think would be interesting would be to add 20,000 H1Bs like tech companies are lobbying for and an additional 10,000 H1Bs that brings in foreign computer science and engineering teachers to teach at the high school level. That or some similar scheme that increases the number of competent high school CS teachers would be very valuable.

In high school I wanted to be a CS major in college, but a shitty CompSci teacher completely killed my interest in the subject and I ended up taking a 10 year detour before returning to software engineering as a career. Plus, as a kid there were like no adult role models around to help me out and Win3.1 wasn't exactly the ideal system to get involved with programming. The 80s was a much better time to grow up if you were a kid interested in programming and had access to a computer.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#77

Post by jquery » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:22 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #72

canistr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's exactly what's already happening. What's missing from the equation is the "skilled" aspect. You can't just hire anybody. A tech firm needs to hire tech people who can do the job. The current problem in the United States is that the supply of people is high but the supply of skilled tech people is low. So the problem you're facing is high-wages for skilled tech workers (even for immigrant tech workers) but…

MSFT doesn't have to hire just anybody. If they pay more than Google, etc, they'll draw people away from those companies. If they pay more than JP Morgan and Goldman, they'll draw people away from those companies. If they pay more than the law firms that significant numbers of CS people leave engineering for, they'll draw people away from those companies. If the whole industry raises salaries to compete, that will co…

Could you please describe your transition from software engineering into another field? What you've said rings very true.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#78

Post by Luc » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #67

cube13 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ocwage.htm Developer-related positions(both research and development), are some of the highest paid STEM-related positions available.

If you want to hire good physicists, you'll need to pay whatever the market rate is for physicists. But if you want to hire good software developers, you'll need to pay whatever the market rate is for software developers, and the fact that they cost four times more than physicists isn't really relevant.

Hmmm... bad example, since according to the provided link physicists make more than developers, both in mean and median.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#79

Post by malandrew » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:27 PM UTC

yajoe wrote: post #69

DenisM wrote: post #38

I am absolutely confident there is no shortage of good software engineers willing to drop everything and move to another part of the country for $500k/year. Absolutely no shortage. If you raise your wages, you will find someone to do the work. If you can't afford to raise the wages, your business plan is not viable. I mean, I could use a houseworker to clean my house for $1 per day, does it mean I should get my wish…

There are many people leaving Microsoft right now. Mostly good people. There are four types of people who stay at Microsoft: 1) Top performers who are on a fast-track ( 2) People who can't get jobs elsewhere (30%) 3) People who have families and are tied to Redmond area (40%) 4) People who can get jobs elsewhere but have visa restrictions and are afraid to upset their status (30%) Everyone else leaves or has already…

  I just wish skilled computer science people could work 
  for whomever they want. Our industry would be so much 
  better off. So long as you pay taxes and are a lawful 
  person, I support anyone living in this country.

Amen to that. I wish more people though this way. Citizenship based on birthright is a really antiquated notion in my view and I'm surprised more countries, at least smaller ones, haven't experimented with this idea more.

Re: Microsoft: Shortage of tech workers in the US becoming 'genuine crisis'

#80

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

WiseWeasel wrote: post #73

MartinCron wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stack ranking BS is (allegedly) a thing of the past, and the rain in Seattle is overblown. There are plenty of US cities that get more rain than Seattle. I won't challenge your opinion about Steve Ballmer, though.

You made me curious, so here's a list of US cities with more average rainy/snowy days per year than Seattle[1]: 223: Juneau, Alaska 209: Mt. Washington, N.H. 169: Buffalo, N.Y. 163: Olympia, Wash. 161: Caribou, Maine 155 (tied, interestingly): Cleveland, Ohio 155: Seattle-Tacoma, Wash. At 37 inches of rain per year, it's not a particularly high volume of rain; it's just spread out over a lot of days. San Francisco is…

155 (tied, interestingly): Cleveland, Ohio

Lake effect snow

Anyway, compare this to where I'm from (South Florida)[1]: Average rainy days - 135 Average rainfall - 62" - 64"

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami,_fl#Climate