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Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

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Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#71

Post by hulitu »

shevy-java wrote: post #25
znpy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe this even harder push by Gnome on Wayland will drive even more effort into the alternative software, and continue to fuel the healthy competition that (for better or worst) the Linux desktop is stuck with. Competition in this space has been everything except healthy. Wayland people have been essentially sabotaging X11 development. Example: people wanting to keep X11 alive have been literally banned from the f…

> Example: people wanting to keep X11 alive have been literally banned from the freedesktop.org infrastructure Yeah - that has been my experience with ebassi etc... too. Also prior to that with Poettering. These people seem on a mission, a crusade. Anyone not conforming to this will be ignored or isolated/banned.

> Poettering

He is Microsoft's mole.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#73

Post by ragnese »

pseudalopex wrote: post #65
ragnese wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read them, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, or why it's directed at my comment. I mean that genuinely. This Xfce dev says that GTK4 is less capable than GTK3, and they feel that GTK5 will continue in that direction. They also acknowledge certain things in the first comment: > [0] Full disclosure: I'm an Xfce developer, and have been disappointed with the direction GTK has been taking for some time…

You raised GTK stewardship. I replied about GTK stewardship. Why raise GTK stewardship and complain replies are not about Mutter exclusively? Why raise GTK stewardship and dismiss it saying so be it? The 2 paragraphs you quoted did not represent the 10 you did not. An Xfce developer saying they can't recommend GTK for new projects outside the GNOME umbrella had information your comment did not. It was not basically e…

Unfortunately, the context starts getting lost as we get deeper into discussion threads like this, but originally, I brought up GTK stewardship because I felt that the top few comments in this thread started to conflate the various projects developed by the GNOME organization. The original HN post was about Mutter, and the first few comments in this reply chain were about software being customizable, etc. Those could've been about whether it's okay or not for Mutter to lose flexibility. But, the one I replied to started complaining about software "imposing limitations on the rest of the ecosystem".

That's when and why I decided to point out that there are different kinds of software projects, and they have different goals and priorities. It's like the old "library vs. application" code: libraries are generic and reusable, and should be written as such, whereas applications are specific and focused.

I brought up GTK simply as an example of a "library project", for which critique of its reusability is warranted, as a counter-example to Mutter, which is an application. Complaining about Mutter's effect on "the ecosystem" is silly. It wouldn't make any less sense to complain about XTerm's effect on the ecosystem by it not supporting Wayland. Anybody in their right mind would just say "So, use one of the other 10,000 terminal emulators in Wayland instead of XTerm"--and rightly so. But, because Mutter is a GNOME project, and GTK is also a GNOME project, I think that people lose focus on what they're talking about.

I did engage with you about GTK because it's interesting, but my point in bringing up GTK was specifically to say "Yeah, those complaints might make sense if we were talking about GTK, but since we're talking about Mutter, they do not." to the comment I replied to.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#74

Post by pseudalopex »

ragnese wrote: post #73
pseudalopex wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raised GTK stewardship. I replied about GTK stewardship. Why raise GTK stewardship and complain replies are not about Mutter exclusively? Why raise GTK stewardship and dismiss it saying so be it? The 2 paragraphs you quoted did not represent the 10 you did not. An Xfce developer saying they can't recommend GTK for new projects outside the GNOME umbrella had information your comment did not. It was not basically e…

Unfortunately, the context starts getting lost as we get deeper into discussion threads like this, but originally, I brought up GTK stewardship because I felt that the top few comments in this thread started to conflate the various projects developed by the GNOME organization. The original HN post was about Mutter, and the first few comments in this reply chain were about software being customizable, etc. Those could…

Your perspective is more clear now. But I disagree.

The article was not about Mutter exclusively. It explained Mutter dropping X11 made GNOME strictly focused on Wayland-based environments. And GNOME Shell would be tied to Mutter even if the article didn't mention it.

Mutter is a library. GNOME is not the only desktop environment which uses it. I don't know if the Pantheon developers wanted to drop X11. But Mutter dropping X11 imposes this limitation on Pantheon.

Your claim the Transmission discussion was not about GTK was incorrect by the way. The GNOME developer said they hadn't decided if GTK would deprecate GtkStatusIcon. The Transmission developer requested GTK make an abstraction. The last comments were a GNOME developer recommending Transmission change architecture so it could support GNOME and in his words whatever odd desktop people want to use after GTK deprecated GtkStatusIcon.

Libraries and applications are not separate inherently. Apple's application scripting architecture was a great strength when it was more supported for example.

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#75

Post by ranger_danger »

lousken wrote: post #16

Wayland is still years away from usable state. You still can't even autotype keepassxc passwords and there are still no good solutions for remote desktop sessions (at least I have not found any last time i checked)

rustdesk supports wayland

Re: Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"

#76

Post by lousken »

throwaway7489 wrote: post #67
saturn_vk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is still years away from usable state … for you, surely. I’m sure there are some wayland users. > autotype keepassxc passwords What is that? > remote desktop sessions IIRC, gnome comes with an ootb RDP solution that, last I tried, worked as advertised. I’m not a big remote user though.

> What is that? I believe they refer to KeePassXC's autofill feature, which autotypes credentials into other applications. I've never used this in X and won't use it on Wayland, as I prefer to keep all applications isolated. I Ctrl-C to copy and then manually paste the password. Wayland is better for this method because I know the clipboard is cleared once I close KeePassXC.

That's nice, if you don't have to always copy both the username and password or if you don't have custom autotype set up. Also I disagree, if I do not trust my password manager, I should not be using it at all.
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