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Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

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Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#71

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rootusrootus wrote: post #70
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why on Earth would they intentionally export only their garbage cheese? This usually happens when one population is discerning and the other is not.

I don't know what to make of that statement. It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss?

> It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss?

You’re parsing discernment as a value judgement. Don’t do that.

New York City has America’s best bagels. This is because OG bagels are best fresh, and making them fresh multiple times a day takes a lot of work. (They stale super fast because gluten is a bastard. Hence toasting.) To pay for that work at a non-ludicrous cost per bagel, you need lots of reliable demand. That really only happens when you have an ecosystem of people who have been eating bagels all their lives made by folks who have been making them similarly.

You don’t find great bagels outside New York (at an affordable price) because the demand isn’t there. Meanwhile, if you haven’t spent time in New York, you probably don’t know (or care about) the difference. Which means you’re unlikely to give excess patronage to anyone who tries to do it right if they try to do it near you. That doesn’t make anyone outside New York who likes their local bagel wrong; it’s just that economies make it very difficult, and frankly pointless, to replicate the New York bagel elsewhere.

If the people in your town will pay extra only for great cheese and the guys across the pond will pay the same price for mediocre and great cheeses, the deck is stacked. (And to be clear, you can find great Swiss cheeses in America. What you can’t is great Swiss wines.)

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#72

Post by rootusrootus »

eru wrote: post #62
rootusrootus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no cheese market large enough and rich enough to pay them what their top cheese is worth That sounds like the market expressing the collective opinion that their cheese is not miles better than what other people make. On a related note, the best seems to be considered Emmentaler AOC, and it does not seem especially difficult to purchase outside of Switzerland.

Emmentaler is a fairly common cheese. I would expect the 'best' to be some obscure cheese that neither you nor me have heard of. I'm quite fond of the Belper Knolle, but even that ain't particularly obscure.

If obscurity is an important factor, there are going to be as many 'best' cheeses as there are people. For this discussion to make any sense we need something of a consensus opinion, for which Emmentaler gets nominated often enough.

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#73

Post by gerdesj »

eru wrote: post #66
gerdesj wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are largely three types of cheese in the US: Swiss, American and Cheddar. I live near to Cheddar (Somerset, UK) but I'm not going to get too outraged. All countries, without exception, do something unpleasant to an ingredient or dish that the rest of the world will cry foul over. It is the way of things.

I'm always somewhat amused that British supermarkets seem to have a cheese section and right next to it a Cheddar section. (Ie Cheddars take up as much space as all the other kinds of cheeses combined.)

Are you sure? I live within 1 mile of Tesco, Morrisons, Lidl (OK) and within say five miles of a lot more supermarkets and all the cheeses are mixed up somewhat across the aisles. I will have to stray to Sherborne or Crewkerne for the really exotic mob (Waitrose).

I'm quite partial to Somerset brie and I'm putting my head up over the parapet here 8)

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#75

Post by rootusrootus »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #71
rootusrootus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to make of that statement. It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss?

> It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss? You’re parsing discernment as a value judgement. Don’t do that. New York City has America’s best bagels. This is because OG bagels are best fresh, and making them fresh multiple times a day takes a lot of work. (They stale super fast because gluten is a bastard. Hence toasting.) To pay for tha…

I'm definitely not on the same wavelength as you this evening.

> New York City has America’s best bagels

That's a big claim.

You say it's because they are best fresh -- are you saying that the rest of the country does not have anybody who makes fresh bagels? That's what I get from your first comment, but then you moved the goalposts a bit by qualifying "at an affordable price." So maybe other cities in the US do have bagels that are just as good as NYC but they are more expensive?

I see there is one final qualification you've made: "the New York bagel." In that case, obviously NYC has the best New York bagel ;).

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#76

Post by dietr1ch »

rootusrootus wrote: post #70
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why on Earth would they intentionally export only their garbage cheese? This usually happens when one population is discerning and the other is not.

I don't know what to make of that statement. It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss?

It's arrogant, but have you travelled to Europe? Food is generally a lot better than in the US, and I mean this starting from the ingredients themselves, so it might have some snarky truth to it.

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#77

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rootusrootus wrote: post #75
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss? You’re parsing discernment as a value judgement. Don’t do that. New York City has America’s best bagels. This is because OG bagels are best fresh, and making them fresh multiple times a day takes a lot of work. (They stale super fast because gluten is a bastard. Hence toasting.) To pay for tha…

I'm definitely not on the same wavelength as you this evening. > New York City has America’s best bagels That's a big claim. You say it's because they are best fresh -- are you saying that the rest of the country does not have anybody who makes fresh bagels? That's what I get from your first comment, but then you moved the goalposts a bit by qualifying "at an affordable price." So maybe other cities in the US do have…

> are you saying that the rest of the country does not have anybody who makes fresh bagels?

Of the kind that stale in two hours? Yes. It wouldn’t be economical.

> maybe other cities in the US do have bagels that are just as good as NYC but they are more expensive?

Never say never, but I haven’t seen it. I have seen private chefs pull it off. But they basically required a sous chef to deal with the lye and boiling.

> there is one final qualification you've made: "the New York bagel." In that case, obviously NYC has the best New York bagel

Yup :). (I qualified the first reference with OG, btw.)

But I’m going further. You can’t make a New York bagel outside New York without hundreds of customers reliably streaming through the door who will fuck off if you try to take a shortcut.

Other cities have great bagels. (Montrèal.) But they’re not that. That’s what I mean by discernment. Literally, discerning one thing from another. If you’ve eaten New York bagels for a stretch, you can discern them from others. If you like that, you’ll seek it out, rewarding those who do the work and punishing those who dope them with preservatives. That creates symbiosis between the bagel eater and maker.

Same with cheese. Same with barbecue. Or chivitos or chaat or all the other local, perishable yummies that are peculiar in an infuriatingly-tedious way.

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#78

Post by bobthepanda »

_2d30 wrote: post #53
dylan604 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather be known for Swiss cheese than American cheese. At least Swiss is actually cheese and not a cheese product. American cheese is nasty. It baffles me people not only eat it, but also like it

American cheese is just cheese with an emulsifier, sodium citrate, added that makes it so that it doesn’t break when melted. At most it adds a slight amount of acidity and makes for a very attractive melting property. There’s not really anything disgusting about it for most people because most people find its melting properties to be a positive. Hating American cheese is an affect people adopt for the same reason peo…

The technical definition of American cheese is that.

In practice, unless you are going to look specifically for it, Kraft, Velveeta et. al. are more than happy to sell you "American cheese product" which does not meet FDA standards for labeling for American cheese, and in practice a lot of people criticizing American cheese are actually criticizing cheese product, which is what is super easy to find both in American supermarkets and abroad.

Europeans also generally take offense at some of the stuff in American supermarkets that has implied labeling like European cheese, like the powdered Kraft Parmesan.

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#79

Post by [deleted] »

dietr1ch wrote: post #76
rootusrootus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to make of that statement. It is arrogant, at least. Are you trashing just the 340 million people in the US with this comment, or everybody not-Swiss?

It's arrogant, but have you travelled to Europe? Food is generally a lot better than in the US, and I mean this starting from the ingredients themselves, so it might have some snarky truth to it.

[deleted]

Re: Why does Swiss cheese have holes?

#80

Post by eru »

gerdesj wrote: post #73
eru wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always somewhat amused that British supermarkets seem to have a cheese section and right next to it a Cheddar section. (Ie Cheddars take up as much space as all the other kinds of cheeses combined.)

Are you sure? I live within 1 mile of Tesco, Morrisons, Lidl (OK) and within say five miles of a lot more supermarkets and all the cheeses are mixed up somewhat across the aisles. I will have to stray to Sherborne or Crewkerne for the really exotic mob (Waitrose). I'm quite partial to Somerset brie and I'm putting my head up over the parapet here 8)

Well, I mostly lived in the UK in the 2010s. Perhaps things have changed in the meantime?
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