Meeting A Troll • Hacker News Board

Re: Meeting A Troll

#71

Post by zainny » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:21 AM UTC

muhuk wrote: post #67

zainny wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your implication that a "loving community" can wave a magic wand and make this sick adult better is equally incorrect. I would suggest in fact that some of the signs this troubled individual would behave in this manner were probably already apparent to his parents, but they chose to dismiss it because no parent really believes their own child can be capable of such horrible behaviour. This is a person that needs…

I would probably do the same thing, I would probably not report the child of my friend to authorities. But looking at this as a third person; I think he got away too easily. He did something evil, he got caught and what are the consequences? A slap on the wrist.

That's the problem with the "loving community will fix everything" theory in a nutshell.

Parents or friends of a person who is dangerous to society will turn a blind eye, be more easily coerced, manipulated, etc.

A loving community will see the signs of recovery in a person, not because there is necessarily any, but because it's what they want to see.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#72

Post by jamesmiller5 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:22 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #61

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine that, as part of the deal, updates proving that counseling is happening aren't a part of the story. I agree with you that I wouldn't let it go without having some knowledge that he is getting the help he obviously needs. I wouldn't want to ruin a 17-year-old's life, either, but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment if I felt my family was in any danger. We don't know the relationship between the OP and his…

If a person takes such a personal, aggressive, and malicious position towards you and your family, by reporting them to the proper authorities you haven't "ruined" their life. You shouldn't feel guilty bringing the perpetrator of a serious crime to justice.

The author avoiding law enforcement leaves the perpetrator no one to blame but himself. The author shows that he is innocent of the hate that was delivered to him, which leaves only the perpetrator responsible for the crime. If the author had involved law enforcement there is a reasonable chance the perpetrator could not have made the same connection.

I think the authors intent was to show the perpetrator why his actions were unjust, where law enforcement could only punish the actions for being illegal. Of course a judge or jury could lecture him but he already knew it was illegal and inhumane, that knowledge still didn't influence his behavior.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#73

Post by SoftwareMaven » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:26 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #61

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine that, as part of the deal, updates proving that counseling is happening aren't a part of the story. I agree with you that I wouldn't let it go without having some knowledge that he is getting the help he obviously needs. I wouldn't want to ruin a 17-year-old's life, either, but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment if I felt my family was in any danger. We don't know the relationship between the OP and his…

If a person takes such a personal, aggressive, and malicious position towards you and your family, by reporting them to the proper authorities you haven't "ruined" their life. You shouldn't feel guilty bringing the perpetrator of a serious crime to justice.

If our penal system was able to rehabilitate, I would 100% agree with you. Unfortunately, given the incredibly high recidivism of convicts, I don't think that is true. Worse yet, prison appears to be a criminal training ground. As a result, I, personally, would be hesitant to throw somebody into that environment if I felt another option that could lead to rehabilitation existed.

The important piece is "another option". If it were my kid, you can bet he wouldn't he getting off easy, but I would hope for an opportunity to rehabilitate. On the other hand, if it were my kid, I would be he first to call the cops if that's what was necessary.

It's unfortunate that our zeal for "justice" has put us in a situation that we say "to hell with the people".

Re: Meeting A Troll

#74

Post by DanHulton » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:26 AM UTC

nhashem wrote: post #29

For what it's worth, if you're the target of especially terrifying harassment like this, it's important to keep two things in mind: the more targeted the harassment is, the easier it is to identify the harasser, and the more likely it is that there's some sort of personal connection. If you're receiving stuff in the mail (like the lunchbox with ashes) or stuff literally just dropped on your doorstep (the dead flowers…

Of course, the flip side of this are all the terrible stories that keep flooding out of 4chan, where 'random' people HAVE been targetted.

Granted, they've usually done SOMETHING to piss off the hivemind, usually something involving posting a picture with something that ends up being identifiable (gps co-ords, school name on something in the background, etc.).

But even in those cases, though you may know where the attack is coming from, there's usually not much to help you figure out exactly who is behind it. At least in the news stories etc. that I've read, it's been a collection of bored 4chan denizens with not much else to connect them.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#75

Post by datalus » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:28 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #62

Karunamon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the police were never involved directly. "He" was still legally a child, for one. For two, the author was unbelievably gracious enough to not take him straight to the cops. A happy ending all around, really. Hopefully the teen idiot will have something good come of his counselling and the world will be a slightly better place.

> Hopefully the teen idiot will have something good come of his counselling and the world will be a slightly better place. Sociopaths benefit from counseling in that they become better able to fool counselors. We can only hope whoever he goes to realizes this.

You trolling? It never ceases to amaze me that people who read a blog post suddenly form hard lined opinions about a real world situation.

To me, it's a bit sociopath-like to be so vindictive about a situation that you know next to nothing about. What's the relationship between the poster and the kid? He most likely knows the boy's past, he knows the family, and yet it's all too easy to forget all that and condemn someone.

If only there were more people in the world like the OP, and less knee jerkers.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#76

Post by dkarl » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:36 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #59

jarrett wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "trolling," as the folks I know use it, doesn't refer to stuff intended to cause harm or grief. Rather, it usually refers to something that would cause fleeting annoyance, or perhaps an eye roll. Or something designed to stir up a tempest in a teapot, e.g. an exaggeratedly controversial forum comment. What the OP describes wouldn't be called trolling in my social circle. It would be called stalking. I think…

>* The term "trolling," as the folks I know use it, doesn't refer to stuff intended to cause harm or grief.* That's very interesting. I don't think you'd have to look very hard to find someone who would include harm and/or grief short of murder as "trolling." Just making someone feel like they have a target painted on them can cause substantive harm to someone. Do this in the context of gender, and it can be called s…

We shouldn't let sociopaths define the language we use to describe them. That's how "hacker" came to mean "criminal."

Re: Meeting A Troll

#77

Post by dean » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 3:42 AM UTC

That's not a troll. And that's not harassment. That's a stalker. I'm shocked Twitter did nothing about this kind of repeated targeted abuse. And I'm very surprised that the police did nothing for someone who was receiving death threats at his front door.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#78

Post by tfigment » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 4:01 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #65

yelsgib wrote: post #57

For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better? The child obviously has some darkness that he needs to work through - to work through darkness he needs the support of a loving community. I find it very sad and disturbing that some commenters (who I assume are…

And your implication that a "loving community" can wave a magic wand and make this sick adult better is equally incorrect. I would suggest in fact that some of the signs this troubled individual would behave in this manner were probably already apparent to his parents, but they chose to dismiss it because no parent really believes their own child can be capable of such horrible behaviour. This is a person that needs…

I'm of multiple minds of this. My personal relation to this is my brother was a punk in his teenage years. He stole from friends, neighbors, and even my mom's engagement ring and hocked it all to by drugs and alcohol. My dad was and still is in the firm "loving community" area with him. Selling my dad's car was the last straw and we sent him to a juvenile detention/rehab/detox center to recover. We feel this was actually worse because this is where he learned from the other people how to lie, cheat, and evade better than he would have on his own. For years he would comeback and steal from my dad knowing he would not be turned in or would at least be released to his care. Now he is career criminal and next chance for parole is in 16 years.

My brother needed professional help but I don't think he got it from that rehab center and sure as hell did not get it in subsequent trips to prison when he became an adult. For him he could act and say exactly the right thing to whoever he was talking too to convince them he was reformed yet again. Being sent away for rehab was probably the wrong action but we did try several things prior to that that never helped.

I think this kid is trouble and the parents knew it which is why they gave the author the option to engage the authorities. They maybe afraid to do it themselves not knowing if he would hold a grudge against them if they did it (my brother did). I don't know if engaging the legal system would help and certainly wouldn't if he was a psychopath. For the author though, this is probably the best option as he did not escalate the situation with the kid. He probably will not be the target in the future but hard to say really. If the kid really is capable of those actions then I would not want him on my enemy's list. The kid has just learned that there are no real consequences for his actions. I think the parents need to be the ones that take action and at least have him see a psychologist as a minimum.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#79

Post by yelsgib » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 4:09 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #65

yelsgib wrote: post #57

For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better? The child obviously has some darkness that he needs to work through - to work through darkness he needs the support of a loving community. I find it very sad and disturbing that some commenters (who I assume are…

And your implication that a "loving community" can wave a magic wand and make this sick adult better is equally incorrect. I would suggest in fact that some of the signs this troubled individual would behave in this manner were probably already apparent to his parents, but they chose to dismiss it because no parent really believes their own child can be capable of such horrible behaviour. This is a person that needs…

Neither do imply nor do I believe that a "loving community" can waive a magic wand and make this sick child better. I do believe that it is more or less the only chance he has. There is ample evidence that our justice system and public mental health facilities are woefully inadequate for dealing with mental disturbances which are increasingly abundant in society. The idea that "professionals" are somehow intrinsically capable of dealing with these sorts of problems is one of the more troubling and pervasive myths in the United States (at least among people I know/have met/in the beliefs of the people as presented in the media). I'm not an expert, but my impression is that ther countries known for having better track records w/r/t criminal and mental rehabilitation (Norway, Finland, Japan) have stronger community structures and a more communal-based jail/asylum system.

What do you imagine happening to this child once he begins receiving professional help - (and let's be clear, here - I am advocating professional help - e.g. I think it's good that the child will go to counseling) - from the authorities that be? If he is put into jail he has a high probability of becoming criminalized (attaching to a community of criminals ) - if he is put into an asylum he has a good chance of becoming institutionalized. What is the root of your faith in our prison/mental health system? I honestly want to know.

It seems that your belief might stem in the idea that the child's parents are somehow morally or intellectually weak and that therefore the government has to step in and be the child's "strong father/mother." Is this correct? If so, why do you believe that government agencies deserve this sort of power? Have they earned it?

Re: Meeting A Troll

#80

Post by yelsgib » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 4:16 AM UTC

minitrollster wrote: post #64

yelsgib wrote: post #57

For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better? The child obviously has some darkness that he needs to work through - to work through darkness he needs the support of a loving community. I find it very sad and disturbing that some commenters (who I assume are…

I don't think the point people are making when they say he should be handed to the authorities is that they'll fix him. The point is that he should answer for his actions. Fixing the darkness or not, the kid DID make death threats and make someone's life miserable by unacceptable and criminal means. Criminals need rehabilitation, but they also need to be taught that their behaviour is unacceptable.

It's unfortunate that you have such strong authoritarian beliefs. Can I convince you that your ideas that criminals (this child is 17 - he has not, by our own state's very definition - attained an age where he can be defined as a criminal or where he can knowingly enter into the social moral contract that binds adults) "need to be taught that their behavior is unacceptable" is a very modern one and - what's more - one that is supported by state propaganda?

Do you actually believe that anyone who enters the prison system is "taught that their behavior is unacceptable?" Many sources indicate that the more common response to incarceration is "criminalization" - that this child has a high probability of connecting with negative forces which will push him further down the path of his darkness.

I recommend you read "Discipline and Punish" by Foucault - I think it would open your ideas to the genealogy of some of the ideals underpinning your beliefs and apparent faith in the modern justice system.