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I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

diegobasch.com

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Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#71

Post by twerquie »

bdcravens wrote: post #37

There's a bigger question here. I get why diego was flabbergasted by the default, and I also hear legitimate claims that the documentation should have been read. But what I want to know is: Why are MongoDB advocates in such a bad mood? It's legit to criticize a language or a database. However, it seems to me that when MongoDB gets involved, the tone is far more aggressive and defensive. What's up with that? It's just…

> In theory, a 3 year developer and a 20 year developer are now pretty equal when we're talking about a technology that's been around 2-3 years.

Hopefully the 20 year dev can recognize the new thing as new and possibly immature, can identify some areas of weakness when compared to tools with a successful history.

> Attacks on these new technologies are perceived as an assault on this new world order, and those who have walked into being one of the "newb elite" respond emotionally to what they see as a battle for the return to the old guard. Am I totally off base here?

Totally agree.

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#72

Post by untog »

jfoutz wrote: post #57
linuxhansl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. Which part of "It silently ignored my data" do you not understand? You call people "morons", yet it appears that you did not read the article yourself. Whether SQL or not, scalable or not, old or new, or whatever... Is completely immaterial here. When a database silently stops accepting data, and apparently has done so for 3 years, you have to at least admit that there are strange design goals at play. Now…

I think you're overlooking asynchronous writes. Exceptions kind of suck in the asynchronous world, because you need to clean up the write error and you have no idea where you are in your code. With a getLastError model, you can do your work, then go check for errors when you're really ready. I'm not saying it's a great api, but it does make sense in context. No idea why the tutorial the op followed didn't talk about…

Surely "getLastError" is an extremely questionable concept in the asynchronous world? How do I know the 'last' error is the one relating to the operation my code just executed?

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#73

Post by pooriaazimi »

rjzzleep wrote: post #49

i welcome the post. even though most of my stuff runs on 64bit, i actually do have a few 32 bit systems here and there. I never knew. Because as the op mentions it's not written anywhere _obvious_. another thing I didn't realize was that because of the memory mapped systems which i guess is fine performancewise it's hard to estimate memory usage on a machine. from what I understand there is no possibility to limit th…

> it's not written anywhere _obvious_.

Isn't http://www.mongodb.org/downloads an obvious place?

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#74

Post by siegecraft »

bdcravens wrote: post #37

There's a bigger question here. I get why diego was flabbergasted by the default, and I also hear legitimate claims that the documentation should have been read. But what I want to know is: Why are MongoDB advocates in such a bad mood? It's legit to criticize a language or a database. However, it seems to me that when MongoDB gets involved, the tone is far more aggressive and defensive. What's up with that? It's just…

Well you could just as easily say that the old guard get upset when all their hard-earned knowledge stops being relevant, so they respond emotionally as well. But arguing about nosql is just something that happens around here...

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#75

Post by AlisdairO »

nemesisj wrote: post #46

We've been interviewing candidates to join our team for a few months, and I've also lent some interviewing support to other startups in our area. I've noticed a trend across about 20+ candidates, all of whom are smart people: people are using Mongo without actually understanding what the hell it's trying to solve by getting away from the RDBMS paradigm. I'm not sure if this is because 10gen markets it as a general pu…

> but I can't help but wonder if the string of negative MongoDB posts is coming from people who pick it b/c it's new, then realise pretty far in that this is nothing like a normal DB, and "having no schema" isn't really a reason to go with a tool as foundational as a data store.

My observation has been that a substantial number of people pick NoSQL stores because they don't really understand RDBMSs, and can't be bothered to learn.

I don't mean this as a dig at NoSQL in general - there's perfectly valid reasons to want some NoSQL features - but the hype train does attract a lot of people who just want the new hotness.

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#76

Post by drunken_thor »

diego wrote: post #5
Adirael wrote: post #3

Just read the documentation and learn the APIs, this is what happens when you just copy and paste code from a tutorial.

This type of attitude is not constructive. Of course I read the documentation. Much more than "copy and paste from the tutorial." I looked at tons of code samples as needed, read blog posts, etc. The limitation wasn't obvious at all. This reminds me of the attitude that I had to correct in developers that worked for me: - There is a huge difference between "it works" and "it does what the user expects in a friendly w…

>Steve Jobs said that if you need to read a user manual (particularly to do the most vanilla usage of a product), the problem is the product. Not you.

You are using a quote about UX/UI to make a point about and API/Dev tool I do not think that they are or should be related

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#77

Post by kordless »

linuxhansl wrote: post #47
mtkd wrote: post #26

This is the latest in a long line of negative posts on MongoDB based solely on first impressions because either: 1) it does not behave exactly like SQL 2) the user didn't read any more than a Quickstart Guide 3) the user fundamentally misunderstands the aim of the new technology or the application it is intended for Ember.js suffers from the same ignorance. What makes it worse is all the morons who upvote without eve…

I'm sorry. Which part of "It silently ignored my data" do you not understand? You call people "morons", yet it appears that you did not read the article yourself. Whether SQL or not, scalable or not, old or new, or whatever... Is completely immaterial here. When a database silently stops accepting data, and apparently has done so for 3 years, you have to at least admit that there are strange design goals at play. Now…

I really wish people here would start being nicer to each other. Thanks for calling him on it.

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#78

Post by bingaling »

daveungerer wrote: post #27

It's almost like the commenters who are bashing the author of the post did not read the bit in bold, which is his main point: If you tell a database to store something, and it doesn’t complain, you should safely assume that it was stored. This has nothing to do with the 2Gb limitation. Nowhere in the documentation does it mention that it will silently discard your data. What will happen with the 64-bit version if you…

Can /dev/null + /bin/yes be considered a database?

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#79

Post by kombine »

manuscreationis wrote: post #55
diego wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my comment below. If you use a package manager you never see the warning.

This may be a case when using the package manager is not always the best option. If you're talking about Ubuntu, I can attest that the default PM there is several versions out of date for a lot of things, and thus to get the version you'd expect, you're forced to install by hand. Also, even using the PM version, didn't you get a warning when you started the server? I thought Mongo threw up a warning at start time abo…

Second every word here. The version in the Ubuntu's repositories is not the latest(which is 2.2) and they can't be more explicit about it than pointing it out on the download page and giving a message upon the database startup.

Re: I’ll Give MongoDB Another Try In Ten Years

#80

Post by Jare »

daveungerer wrote: post #27

It's almost like the commenters who are bashing the author of the post did not read the bit in bold, which is his main point: If you tell a database to store something, and it doesn’t complain, you should safely assume that it was stored. This has nothing to do with the 2Gb limitation. Nowhere in the documentation does it mention that it will silently discard your data. What will happen with the 64-bit version if you…

If a link to "Write Concern" prominently visible at the start of the first page of the official documentation for the Ruby API does not seem important enough to look at, I don't know what to tell you, except RTFM.

http://api.mongodb.org/ruby/1.7.0/

'Success' and 'Failure' are fuzzy concepts when writing to distributed databases, and you need to tell Mongo which particular definition fits your needs. The 'unsafe' default in mongo is controversial, but ranting about what a "proper database" is without even reading the docs is stupid. Instead, let's rant about what a "proper developer" should do when using a new system...

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