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You are the scariest monster in the woods

jamie.ideasasylum.com

71–80 of 405 posts

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I can come up with is that compressing several hundred million years of natural selection of animal nervous systems into another form, but optimised by gradient descent instead, just takes a lot of time. Not that we can’t get there by artificial means, but that correctly simulating the environment interactions, the sequence of progression, getting the all the details right, might take hundreds to thous…

I don't disagree, but I think the evolution argument is a red herring. We didn't have to re-engineer horses from the ground up along evolutionary lines to get to much faster and more capable cars.

The evolution thing is kind of a red herring in that we probably don't have to artificially construct the process of evolution, though your reasoning isn't a good explanation for why the "evolution" reason is a red herring: Yeah, nature already established incomprehensibly complex organic systems in these life forms -- so we're benefiting from that. But the extent of our contribution is making some select animals mate with others. Hardly comparable to building our own replacement for some millennia of organic iteration/evolution. Luckily we probably don't actually need to do that to produce AGI.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#72
post #44

There's this weird disconnect in tech circles, where everyone is deathly afraid of AGI, but totally asleep on the very real possibility of thermonuclear war breaking out in Europe or Asia over the next 10 years. There's already credible evidence that we came perilously close to the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine which likely would've spiraled out of control. AGI might happen, but the threat of nuclear war…

Other doomsday risks aren't any reason to turn our heads away from this one. AI's much more likely to end up taking an apocalyptic form if we sleep on it.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone knows of a steelman version of the "AGI is not possible" argument, I would be curious to read it. I also have trouble understanding what goes into that point of view.

The only thing I can come up with is that compressing several hundred million years of natural selection of animal nervous systems into another form, but optimised by gradient descent instead, just takes a lot of time. Not that we can’t get there by artificial means, but that correctly simulating the environment interactions, the sequence of progression, getting the all the details right, might take hundreds to thous…

> correctly simulating the environment interactions, the sequence of progression, getting the all the details right, might take hundreds to thousands of years of compute

Who says we have to do that? Just because something was originally produced by natural process X, that doesn't mean that exhaustively retracing our way through process X is the only way to get there.

Lab grown diamonds are a thing.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#74

I struggle to understand how people can just dismiss the possibility of artificial intelligence. Human cognition was basically bruteforced by evolution-- why would it be impossible to achieve the exact same result in silicon, especially after we already demonstrated some parts of those results (e.g. use of language) that critically set us apart from other animals? I'm not buying the whole "AI has no agency" line eith…

I don't get how you can see one of those CLI coding tools in action and still parrot the "no agency" line. The goal-oriented behavior is rather obvious.

Sure, they aren't very good at agentic behavior yet, and the time horizon is pretty low. But that keeps improving with each frontier release.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I can come up with is that compressing several hundred million years of natural selection of animal nervous systems into another form, but optimised by gradient descent instead, just takes a lot of time. Not that we can’t get there by artificial means, but that correctly simulating the environment interactions, the sequence of progression, getting the all the details right, might take hundreds to thous…

I don't disagree, but I think the evolution argument is a red herring. We didn't have to re-engineer horses from the ground up along evolutionary lines to get to much faster and more capable cars.

True, but I think this reasoning is a category error: we were and are capable of rationally designing cars. We are not today doing the same thing with AI, we’re forced to optimize them instead. Yes, the structure that you optimize around is vitally important, but we’re still doing brute force rather than intelligent design at the end of the day. It’s not comparing like with like.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone knows of a steelman version of the "AGI is not possible" argument, I would be curious to read it. I also have trouble understanding what goes into that point of view.

The only thing I can come up with is that compressing several hundred million years of natural selection of animal nervous systems into another form, but optimised by gradient descent instead, just takes a lot of time. Not that we can’t get there by artificial means, but that correctly simulating the environment interactions, the sequence of progression, getting the all the details right, might take hundreds to thous…

The overwhelming majority of animal species never developed (what we would consider) language processing capabilities. So agi doesn't seem like something that evolution is particularly good at producing; more an emergent trait, eventually appearing in things designed simply to not die for long enough to reproduce...

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#77
post #44

There's this weird disconnect in tech circles, where everyone is deathly afraid of AGI, but totally asleep on the very real possibility of thermonuclear war breaking out in Europe or Asia over the next 10 years. There's already credible evidence that we came perilously close to the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine which likely would've spiraled out of control. AGI might happen, but the threat of nuclear war…

Or, you know, the bit where we've now-irrevocably committed ourselves to destabilizing the global climate system whose relative predictability has been the foundation of our entire civilization. That's going to be a ride.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#78

I struggle to understand how people can just dismiss the possibility of artificial intelligence. Human cognition was basically bruteforced by evolution-- why would it be impossible to achieve the exact same result in silicon, especially after we already demonstrated some parts of those results (e.g. use of language) that critically set us apart from other animals? I'm not buying the whole "AI has no agency" line eith…

I think you make a lot of assumptions that you should perhaps reexamine.

> Human cognition was basically bruteforced by evolution-- why would it be impossible to achieve the exact same result in silicon, especially after we already demonstrated some parts of those results (e.g. use of language) that critically set us apart from other animals?

Here are some of your assumptions:

1. Human intelligence is entirely explicable in evolutionary terms. (It is certainly not the case that it has been explained in this manner, even if it could be.) [0]

2. Human intelligence assumed as an entirely biological phenomenon is realizable in something that is not biological.

And perhaps this one:

3. Silicon is somehow intrinsically bound up with computation.

In the case of (2), you're taking a superficial black box view of intelligence and completely ignoring its causes and essential features. This prevents you from distinguishing between simulation of appearance and substantial reality.

Now, that LLMs and so on can simulate syntactic operations or whatever is no surprise. Computers are abstract mathematical formal models that define computations exactly as syntactic operations. What computers lack are semantic content. A computer never contains the concept of the number 2 and the concept of the addition operation even though we can simulate the addition of 2 + 2. This intrinsic absence of a semantic dimension means that computers already lack the most essential feature of intelligence, which is intentionality. There is no alchemical magic that will turn syntax into semantics.

In the case of (3), I emphasize that computation is not a physical phenomenon, but something described by a number of formally equivalent models (Turing machine, lambda calculus, and so on) that aim to formalize the notion of effective method. The use of silicon-based electronics is irrelevant to the model. We can physically simulate the model using all sorts of things, like wooden gears or jars of water or whatever.

> I'm not buying the whole "AI has no agency" line either; this might be true for now, but this is already being circumvented with current LLMs (by giving them web access etc). [...] As soon as profit can be made by transfering decision power into an AIs hand, some form of agency for them is just a matter of time, and we might simply not be willing to pull the plug until it is much too late.

How on earth did you conclude there is any agency here, or that it's just a "matter of time"? This is textbook magical thinking. You are projecting a good deal here that is completely unwarranted.

Computation is not some kind of mystery, and we know at least enough about human intelligence to notes features that are not included in the concept of computation.

[0] (Assumption (1), of course, has the problem that if intelligence is entirely explicable in terms of evolutionary processes, then we have no reason to believe that the intelligence produced aims at truth. Survival affordances don't imply fidelity to reality. This leads us to the classic retorsion arguments that threaten the very viability of the science you are trying to draw on.)

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#79
post #31
post #25

> I don’t really believe in the threat of AGI (Artificial General Intelligence—human-level intelligence) partly because I don’t believe in the possibility of AGI and I’m highly skeptical that the current technology underpinning LLMs will provide a route to it. I'm on board with being skeptical that LLMs will lead to AGI; but - there being no possibility seems like such a strong claim. Should we really bet that there…

We still haven’t figured out what intelligence even is. Depending on what you care about, the second-smartest animal in the world varies wildly.

This is a bogus argument. There's a lot we don't understand about LLMs, yet we built them.

Re: You are the scariest monster in the woods

#80
post #52
post #16

A nit: There's a subtle distinction between an individual human and the power of human organization and civilization that is implied by the article, but never outright stated. One-for-one, there are many creatures that are individually more dangerous to humans, and a decent number of people are killed by such animals every year. Indeed, a naked human in the wild is going to be quite fragile and easy to kill until the…

A lot of rugged individualists seem to neglect talking about the human super organism. That the vast majority of our strength comes from sharing knowledge, making tools, and working together. And on that same note it should be mentioned that exchange of information between humans is relatively slow and guarded. A group of entities that could exchange knowledge quickly and efficiently would represent an extreme challe…

They also ignore that a lot of the knowledge they now have / have studied comes FROM others sharing freely.
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