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Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

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Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs for Mac is fine though?: https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds That build has native compilation, and if you go for a Doom install you may need to build ripgrep yourself, but... that's also not difficult.

Oh sweet summer child. http://xahlee.info/emacs/misc/emacs_macos_emoji.html Color emoji was deliberately disabled on macOS (2016): policy first, parity later. Emacs 25 turned off multicolor fonts on the Cocoa port even though they worked, with a NEWS note saying they’d be re-enabled "once it is also implemented in Emacs on free operating systems." This was widely read as a political parity requirement that penalized…

I've got another one for macOS. It's not as significant as what you listed, but it was extremely annoying for me.

When using homebrew, the default package for emacs is version 30. However, that version on macOS was compiled with an outdated tree-sitter version (v14). If one tries to install a tree-sitter parser for a particular language it will not work with emacs 29 or 30 on macOS (or at least not that I could figure out). I tried the D12Frosted version and some of the alternatives for macOS (I forget the names).

The current tree-sitter project is on v15+, so in order for it to work, one has to go through the commit histories for each language and find when the tree sitter's parser version was last compatible with v14. To my knowledge, this was not clearly listed in all the git commits in a nice clean manner.

One alleged workaround was to install everything via RedHat OS and move the installed parsers over to macOS since their version of emacs and the tree-sitter parsers are still compatible. However, I was not interested in doing this.

Interestingly enough, Neovim does not have this issue on macOS to my knowledge, but I could be wrong.

Now, this is not entirely an emacs issue, but it does introduce an interesting issue. If emacs has to be compiled with a particular tree-sitter version, then it makes things quite difficult to maintain. The maintainers apparently are discussing various options on how to handle this going forward, but there isn't a clear way to work around this.

Now, I do believe if one builds emacs from source, he or she can work around this issue to some degree, but I was also not interesting in doing this because one loses out on some of the nice features that the macOS focused emacs versions come with. I also did not want to install all the dependencies required to build from source since those dependencies are not something I have any other use for other than building emacs.

So, I just gave up on the tree-sitter. Though, I think emacs 31 has this fixed until it happens again, but I also encountered a lot of other bugs when trying other use it since it's a prerelease version anyway.

This was all months ago, so maybe things have changed. I haven't kept up. I can live without tree-sitter for the time being.

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#72
post #59
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to add the code to use something else by default on Windows: https://cgit.git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/p... >

Why should I bother, when I share James Gosling opinion regarding using Emacs on the 21st century? https://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/dont-use-emacs-says-jav... Given that was in 2008, I would update his remark from Netbeans, to any of JetBrains products, Eclipse or whatever. In any case, you can get those features using Windows Resource Toolkit on the old days, a mix of findstr and other similar improvements on Wi…

He’s probabaly just salty that his commercial Emacs clone for Unix (with its terrible not-quite-Lisp extension language) never took off.

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that's a wall of text proving pretty much nothing, other than that RMS is an out of touch goofball. As I and others have noted, actually using emacs on a Macintosh is dead easy. MacOS ships with an older terminal version, so you don't even have to download anything if you're fine with that distro. OTOH, multiple native build distributions exist and are a click away. I spend a good chunk of my day in a native buil…

It only proves nothing if you didn't bother reading it (which you words "wall of text" imply) and didn't check any of the links proving what I said. Instead of dismissing everything by handwaving, please tell me which specific points I made that you disagree with, and what is your evidence? How long have you been using Emacs, yourself? If you just got started a few years ago, then that excuses your ignorance of histo…

The point is that you came in here with a pasted wall of text with a whole bunch of urls claiming emacs users on MacOS are somehow 3rd class citizens because ... of things from long ago, I guess.

My point, Don, is that these long-ago issues are now irrelevant. Your position here runs utterly counter to the lived experience of Mac emacs users.

I don't care what RMS did in 2005. It's not relevant to using emacs on a Mac in 2025.

I don't even need to care about the history of emacs on the Mac, or whatever other ill-advised chicanery the FSF has committed on this or any other point (and, not to put too fine a point on it, but at 55 I've seen plenty of goofy own-goals from that crowd).

What matters now is "gee, how easy is it for a Mac user to access and use emacs productively?" That answer, for at least the last 8 to 10 years (which is also the answer to your gatekeepy question), has been "very!" You open terminal and type "emacs," or you download a build that runs as a gui from any of several maintainers. You're done.

It's about as simple as it is to run it on a Linux box (which I also do), and far simpler than getting it to behave under Windows (and I have those scars, too).

So what was your point again?

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only proves nothing if you didn't bother reading it (which you words "wall of text" imply) and didn't check any of the links proving what I said. Instead of dismissing everything by handwaving, please tell me which specific points I made that you disagree with, and what is your evidence? How long have you been using Emacs, yourself? If you just got started a few years ago, then that excuses your ignorance of histo…

The point is that you came in here with a pasted wall of text with a whole bunch of urls claiming emacs users on MacOS are somehow 3rd class citizens because ... of things from long ago, I guess. My point, Don, is that these long-ago issues are now irrelevant. Your position here runs utterly counter to the lived experience of Mac emacs users. I don't care what RMS did in 2005. It's not relevant to using emacs on a Ma…

My thoughts too. I've never had any real problems running it on Windows myself, but it doesn't feel like Mac users are any worse off.

I've been using Mac Emacs since about 2010, so perhaps I dodged some of the worst stuff, and it's always felt - for good or for ill - very much the same as using it on Windows or Linux/X-Windows, both of which I've been using since 2005 or so.

I've always used the standard GNU version rather than any specific Mac port. Over the years I'll have done some mix of downloading prebuilt binaries, building it from source, or getting the MacPorts version.

Perhaps I have missed out on some Fancy Extra Mac Stuff, the sort of thing that would come as standard with any project that took the platform seriously, but it's never really felt like a problem. And indeed, I figure if I'm happy enough with it running on X-Windows and on Windows, why wouldn't I be just as happy with exactly the same thing on macOS too? A consistent (or near enough) cross-platform experience is part of why I use Emacs anyway.

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#76
post #19

This essay is amazing and delightful, but it is rather densely allusive, like classical Chinese literature; ultimately it is more allusion than plain language. I suspect that most people will find it somewhat impenetrable. But if you want to see Emacs explained by references to Dune, Harry Potter, Gormenghast, Star Wars, A Rape in Cyberspace , Neuromancer , The Matrix, Crowleyian magick, and so on, this essay is for…

"I've also been diagnosed with severe hostility towards Vim users but that's not a real disease of course. The real disease is Vim."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I feel like that in Emacs sometimes, too. The debugger helps.

I keep track of my Emacs with a Tractive GPS collar, and I have an app on my phone that shows the trails and a heat map of everywhere he's been. And I debug him with Frontline, but that doesn't prevent him from coming in with slugs in his fur. (Emacs is my cat's name.)

Is he bigger on the inside? Does he represent a bet that didn’t pay off, on a future that will never, ever be allowed to come? Does he embody the charming but mistaken belief that creating tools to make people freer will begin a movement toward freedom?

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#78
post #19

This essay is amazing and delightful, but it is rather densely allusive, like classical Chinese literature; ultimately it is more allusion than plain language. I suspect that most people will find it somewhat impenetrable. But if you want to see Emacs explained by references to Dune, Harry Potter, Gormenghast, Star Wars, A Rape in Cyberspace , Neuromancer , The Matrix, Crowleyian magick, and so on, this essay is for…

"I've also been diagnosed with severe hostility towards Vim users but that's not a real disease of course. The real disease is Vim." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcL86UpqZc

Silly. The only people who are hostile to Vim users are vi users, because Vim is a vi clone that is secretly Emacs.

Re: Bare Metal (The Emacs Essay)

#79

They say there’s no Emacs — only your Emacs. This hit home for me. I spent about 6 months working exclusively with emacs to get past the "this is weird/hard because it is unfamiliar to me" stage. At the end of the experiment, I went back to using vim and IDEs. My take personal takeaways from the experience: 1) capslock/ctrl switching is helpful in so many other areas - so I kept that 2) emacs is something you want to…

2) I have eshell bound to a keybind, but I've never use it. I prefer shell-mode and shell-command. They make it easy to use cli utilities. TUI is something that I find myself no longer needing. And I've become so accustomed with the cli that the only two I'm using in a terminal is `less` and `top`.

3) I think the best way is to find some vanilla base config that will smooth out the rough parts, then, once you understand the internal concepts, tweak them to your liking. It's certainly a long term plan, but the pro is not having to wait on "features" from another company or group.

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