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The App Store was always authoritarian

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Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#71

Post by clutter55561 »

schoen wrote: post #55

Note that Apple's app store transparency report (thanks to them for publishing this, they don't have to) https://www.apple.com/legal/more-resources/docs/2024-App-Sto... says that there are over 1700 apps removed per year due to "government takedown demands". Since this is separate from about 2 million (!) apps they rejected from the app store and about 80,000 apps they removed from the app store on their own initiati…

Excellent points. I don’t think anyone has a problem with app removal per se, but with the fact that Apple is bending the knee to a corrupt government to buy favours. When that happens, people lose trust that apps were removed for safeguarding and start wondering “what are they hiding from me”.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#72

Post by bowsamic »

strangegecko wrote: post #59
9dev wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? These comments are so bewildering. I like the design and UX, and the promise to at least a bit more privacy, but if I had to use android or windows or Ubuntu tomorrow, it’d be another device that I use. How you could even expend so much of your time to think about computers more than necessary to use them, much less worship a brand, is beyond me.

I think both of you entirely misread the top level comment. He's saying that owning and using an Apple product requires you to engage in behaviors akin to worship, I imagine e.g. accepting Apple's way of doing X as correct by default (~worship) rather than wanting to customize something based on your thoughts and preferences (questioning).

> He's saying that owning and using an Apple product requires you to engage in behaviors akin to worship

It doesn’t at all, though. Many things can’t be customised on all computers. Am I worshipping my TV because they only give a few selections for power off time?

You’d never say that for everyone else who puts some restriction on their hardware or software that we must worship them, so why for Apple?

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#73

Post by brazukadev »

dewey wrote: post #44
mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

If you are not smart enough and need a big tech company to lead your life you can do it by yourself without thinking it's okay to subject the whole world to this duopoly.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#74

Post by fsflover »

dewey wrote: post #44
mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

I know several non-technical people who use F-Droid to get reliable, free software. This is the only option to get updates after the phone is no longer supported. Ideally, it should be possible to install a different, supported OS for that.

iPhones become e-waste at that point, due to the discussed restrictions.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#75

Post by dewey »

brazukadev wrote: post #73
dewey wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

If you are not smart enough and need a big tech company to lead your life you can do it by yourself without thinking it's okay to subject the whole world to this duopoly.

You can very easily turn that argument around and say: if you are smart enough, use an operating system that doesn't babysit you and switch to Linux which is a very valid option.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#76

Post by nozzlegear »

clutter55561 wrote: post #41

Well written, but its starting point seems to be “Apple used to be force for good”. — It is a corporation. It wants your money. This is not new. This is not any different from Lilly (Mounjaro), or Google, or any other, er… corporation. The idea that a CEO will stand up to his democratically elected dictator is absurd. Why should he, when the dictator is merely implementing the policies he said he would during the cam…

> The idea that a CEO will stand up to his democratically elected dictator is absurd. Why should he, when the dictator is merely implementing the policies he said he would during the campaign and still got elected? Why should he make himself and his company and his shareholders martyrs?

This is exactly what Apple did when they stood their ground against the FBI in the case of the San Bernardino shooter though. Of course, Obama could hardly be called a dictator, and wasn't a petty, vindictive man like our current president. But it'd still be good to see Cook rediscover that "fuck you, make me" attitude from the old Apple.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#77

Post by ffsm8 »

nozzlegear wrote: post #76
clutter55561 wrote: post #41

Well written, but its starting point seems to be “Apple used to be force for good”. — It is a corporation. It wants your money. This is not new. This is not any different from Lilly (Mounjaro), or Google, or any other, er… corporation. The idea that a CEO will stand up to his democratically elected dictator is absurd. Why should he, when the dictator is merely implementing the policies he said he would during the cam…

> The idea that a CEO will stand up to his democratically elected dictator is absurd. Why should he, when the dictator is merely implementing the policies he said he would during the campaign and still got elected? Why should he make himself and his company and his shareholders martyrs? This is exactly what Apple did when they stood their ground against the FBI in the case of the San Bernardino shooter though. Of cou…

From a spectators perspective I'd say they called the presidents bluff back then - but it's not bluffing right now... So if they try that attitude with Trump, there is going to be catastrophic fallout. Hence their compliance.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#78

Post by keyringlight »

dewey wrote: post #44
mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

I think the change has been the general user doing many aspects of their real-life interactions (money, government, housing, travel, work, etc) easily and at speed via computing device compared to slower offline or face-to-face, and there's huge consequences if that gets screwed up if it can't be isolated from interference.

What I find interesting is that there's been little interesting making something like QubesOS for as many consumer devices (portables as well as desktop) as possible with an interface as painless as possible so people actually use it, and then the blast radius from any problem is smaller. There's also the hosted services side of computing where isolation on the same host is an expected feature and vulnerabilities like meltdown/spectre are such a big deal over the past 8 years, but it only gets seen as a curiosity on consumer devices.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#79

Post by cosmic_cheese »

9dev wrote: post #67
strangegecko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both of you entirely misread the top level comment. He's saying that owning and using an Apple product requires you to engage in behaviors akin to worship, I imagine e.g. accepting Apple's way of doing X as correct by default (~worship) rather than wanting to customize something based on your thoughts and preferences (questioning).

But that’s just as wrong. Apple products are definitely opinionated, but using a product that’s meant to be used a specific way doesn’t have anything to do with worship? If your personal preferences overlap with Apples design choices, good for you; personally, I prefer to not having lots of ways to tinker with irrelevant details, because I’m very susceptible for that kind of busywork that keeps me from focusing on ac…

Exactly. Opinionated products are great for those who share the opinion, and for everybody else there’s other products. It’s personal preference, and nobody is “wrong” for preferring one platform above the others.

Could I get along on a Windows or Linux box if I had to? Sure. I even have multiple of both as single-purpose machines. I’m not going to enjoy it, though, and I’m going to end up spending way too much time and energy tweaking either to fit my preferences (being Mac-like). There is no Linux desktop or Windows release that I could put to use as a daily driver without getting pulled down the customization rabbit hole.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#80

Post by dewey »

keyringlight wrote: post #78
dewey wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

I think the change has been the general user doing many aspects of their real-life interactions (money, government, housing, travel, work, etc) easily and at speed via computing device compared to slower offline or face-to-face, and there's huge consequences if that gets screwed up if it can't be isolated from interference. What I find interesting is that there's been little interesting making something like QubesOS…

> What I find interesting is that there's been little interesting making something like QubesOS for as many consumer devices

I know it's on a much, much smaller scale, but I'd say the move to sandboxing apps / browser tabs / profiles is aiming for precisely that and in a way that's invisible to most users, which is probably for the better.

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