Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

bigbrotherwatch.org.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 152 posts

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#71

Post by afandian »

stringsandchars wrote: post #34

OTOH - partly playing devil's advocate here - I'm dealing with several bank and inheritance-related issues in the UK from my home in Sweden now, and needing to do pretty much ANYTHING with an authority in the UK feels like stepping back into the 17th century. There's a constant requirement for paperwork to prove who I am - always in the form of items that are 100% digital nowadays in the Nordic countries (like a "uti…

I visited Sweden this summer. One or two things accepted only Swish payment. Seems to be impossible for a visitor to use, you need to set it up with your bank.

I managed by asking a friend to use theirs. But don't assume that tech that "makes life easier" automatically means that it's inclusive. (See also parallel discussion today about EU Age Verification app [0]).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45359074

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#72

Post by numpad0 »

flumpcakes wrote: post #35

Can anyone explain why this is a bad thing? All I hear about this is conspiracy theories or anti-government rhetoric but never a clear reason to why this is bad. I can't see a reason considering all of the benefits it can bring, and similar things have been rolled out across Nordic countries.

You don't want Palantir to be able to buy list of Uber riders traveled to/from locations near MI6. A universal government backed ID cards on signup, or worse yet used as substitute for credit cards, makes that kind of things easy.

You can have such ID card system that can produce proof of authenticity of card itself, without any digitized card-face information included. I think that's how most existing systems are implemented.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#73

Post by afandian »

tokai wrote: post #31
willvarfar wrote: post #3

Digital ID works great in the nordic countries and doubtless elsewhere.

It works. No need to call it great. Just the other month 35.000 danes lost access to their digital id because their phones are running too old android. There are edge cases where people get locked out of the system without access to public services, and why it is resolvable it can result in missed benefits and inturn missed rent payments. I myself have experienced being between housing, and wasn't able to access my d…

Do you have more background links? Did it cause a national dialogue? Did anyone in government take accountability for that?

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#74

Post by ChocolateGod »

ionwake wrote: post #59
flumpcakes wrote: post #35

Can anyone explain why this is a bad thing? All I hear about this is conspiracy theories or anti-government rhetoric but never a clear reason to why this is bad. I can't see a reason considering all of the benefits it can bring, and similar things have been rolled out across Nordic countries.

I think its that some anonymity gives safety from the government. IE during WW2 Holland kept such meticulous records on its citizens that it indirectly leads to the greatest numbers of imprisoned ethnic groups ( because the information was there , easily accessible by the invading forces. I think thats a good example of how too much info results in vulnerability for citizens. I dont have an opinion on this just shari…

> anonymity gives safety from the government

Drivers licenses are effectively already being used as state ID cards in all but name, so it's not as if the government doesn't already have that information.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#75

Post by GordonS »

flumpcakes wrote: post #35

Can anyone explain why this is a bad thing? All I hear about this is conspiracy theories or anti-government rhetoric but never a clear reason to why this is bad. I can't see a reason considering all of the benefits it can bring, and similar things have been rolled out across Nordic countries.

Well, for one thing, the project would be gifted to one of the usual gravy-train companies, Fujitsu/TCS/Cognizant/Accenture. They will spend untold tens of billions on a half-baked bag of crap, beg for yet more money to fix it (blaming gov in the process). Eventually it'll be rolled out several years late and many billions over budget. And of course, there'll be board positions for those in gov that play along.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#76

Post by maleldil »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #64
maleldil wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This always felt weird to me in the UK. As a foreigner, I have to carry my passport anyway, but how do citizens who don't have driving licences identify themselves in day-to-day life? Say they get carded at a pub?

You don't have to carry any form of ID in the UK and there are no ID cards, anyway. That said, obviously most people have their driving licence on them. As a foreigner you do not have to carry your passport. No-one is going to ask for ID unless you are doing something specific at a bank or government office, for instance. Or, indeed if you are trying to buy alcohol or cigarettes anywhere and look very young... But yo…

I wouldn't say you need to look very young. I've been asked to show my ID when entering venues and buying alcohol[1], and I'm nearly 30. I might look under 25 if you're being generous. As a result, I usually carry my passport.

[1] Well, zero-alcohol beer, which is considered alcohol for this purpose.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#77

Post by somelamer567 »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #58
that_guy_iain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the UK does not have a national ID system like nearly every other country in Europe, the reason it goes nowhere is that it costs money and no one wants to spend the money on it.

I don't think so. I think it raises peoples' hackles because it is "not something we do here" - English-speaking countries seem to not go with mandatory ID in the same way as continental Europe. Maybe a Napoleonic/Common-Law thing? (Personally, I don't object to the idea).

This seems to be a pub bore talking point... the usual seemingly-clever street-level arguments that don't stand up to serious scrutiny.

If people think that if they get ID card, the government is coming to take their precious bodily fluids, then the country has bigger cultural, political problems than a mere public safety measure.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#78

Post by testdelacc1 »

I don’t find what either side is saying here very convincing.

Anti-ID “it will change our relationship with the state, cause irreversible damage to our civil liberties and fail to deter illegal immigration”. They say it will lead to “frequent identity checks as we navigate our daily lives”. That last part isn’t true, for sure. I’ve lived in a country with a digital ID and you had to verify your identity a few times a year at most - submitting taxes, opening bank accounts etc. They’re exaggerating here.

The pro-ID group is even less convincing, if that can be imagined. Tony Blair, former PM has been batting for this for ages - Digital ID is the Disruption the UK Desperately Needs (https://institute.global/insights/tech-and-digitalisation/to...). And it all sounds like snake oil to someone who is even a little tech inclined. He’s promising all kinds of things, like the UK will see dramatically higher growth. I’ve seen India before and after Aadhaar. It helped, but it didn’t fundamentally remake the economy. UPI did do that, but it’s not dependent on Aadhaar.

And the government wants to show they’re cracking down on illegal immigration so this is an easy win. But it will take more than 5 years to roll out and by then the PM would be out of a job. Even if it could be rolled out to 70 million people in 2 years (that’s 100k people per day), it wouldn’t have all these incredible benefits. As for illegal immigration, it would catch a few but not all.

The technical issue is that while you can issue everyone an ID, it would take much, much longer to make that ID the primary key in every database. The NHS ID has existed forever, and it is still not possible to query all the healthcare information associated with an ID. (This is why the NHS can’t estimate how much a patient costs). Adding a second ID doesn’t make that nearly unsolvable problem solvable.

Almost no one is being realistic or well informed. I just don’t know how you can have a political discussion when everyone is exaggerating like this.

If the UK rolled out a system like Aadhaar, it wouldn’t be earth shattering. It would take many years, it would have several hiccups along the way, take way longer than expected, but it would get over the line eventually. And it would make a few admin tasks smoother, certainly. It would reduce some kinds of fraud slightly. And that’s about it. No one’s civil liberties would be destroyed.

To end on a lighter note, the political comedy Yes Minister covered the idea of introducing a universal ID in the 1980s. Political suicide, the minister was advised. https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE. Thank god the UK is no longer in the EU, so Brussels can no longer force a compulsory ID on British people. Downing Street can take all the credit for this one.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#79

Post by martinald »

sksksk wrote: post #54
martinald wrote: post #15

The UK already has (various) digital IDs but this is the 'new' one https://www.gov.uk/using-your-gov-uk-one-login . So what's going to be different? Just making it mandatory? I can see some justification (sorta) for not making it mandatory, but saying it won't improve citizens lives is complete rubbish. Having one login for all government services would massively improve the efficiency, especially if other department…

One Login is an "authentication" system, an oAuth provider with identity added on. This means you can prove your identity once (to various levels of confidence, as defined in GPG45 [1]), and use that same verification across different government services. When people talk about a national ID system, they're often talking about some form of "authorization", i.e. proving that you are entitled to certain things. There c…

No I get that but you could eg link your passport to the One Login and it'd make the UX much better for many services. For example, if you linked passport, driving license and NI/tax account, then I think for 99% of services you wouldn't need to fill anything in.

FWIW I was impressed with the DVLA driving license process, where you can type your passport number in and it pulls your photo from the passport. Very smooth. Could be even smoother if it could link automatically your passport.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#80

Post by Gud »

worldsayshi wrote: post #38
stringsandchars wrote: post #34

OTOH - partly playing devil's advocate here - I'm dealing with several bank and inheritance-related issues in the UK from my home in Sweden now, and needing to do pretty much ANYTHING with an authority in the UK feels like stepping back into the 17th century. There's a constant requirement for paperwork to prove who I am - always in the form of items that are 100% digital nowadays in the Nordic countries (like a "uti…

Swede here. I would not want to go back to days without BankID and related tools. That being said, the implementation has some less than desirable features. It's privately owned by some kind of joint venture by the banks. It only supports the major OS:s. So you're pretty much forced to own a Android or IPhone to function. Also, I haven't had the need to do this myself but taking care of somebody else's legal dealings…

You can use the “säkerhetsdosa” to authorise yourself, at least with Swedbank. I use FreeBSD.

But yes. An open, free software solution would be welcome.

Post reply on HN