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EU age verification app not planning desktop support

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Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#71

Post by jeroenhd »

disruptiveink wrote: post #45
baq wrote: post #5

This is hardware attestation in a nutshell: a double edged sword, and a sharp one at that. The biggest issue is that the attestation hardware and the application client is the same device with the same manufacturer, who also happens to have a slight conflict of interest between monetizing customers and preserving any sort of privacy. IMHO the pro-attestation forces are so overwhelming that we should all cherish the m…

The insane question here is, why would the EU mandate hardware attestation controlled by two private American companies in order to access services? That seems completely contrary to the spirit of EU laws and regulations, which tend to be about protecting the consumer, preventing monopolies, ensuring people can generally live their lives where all things that are mandatory are owned and ran by the state and foster a…

The app this discussion is about is a reference implementation that is part of a long-term process for building a digital identity app. Specifically, this discussion is about the age verification part of the app, which is the first part expected to be finished but is also only a small part of a much wider ideal.

Europe's dependence on American tech is a major pain point but realistically, there are only two smartphone vendors. If a European vendor does rise up, I'm sure whatever app comes out of this process will happily hook into the hardware attestation API for that OS as well.

https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#72

Post by EE84M3i »

I think the title "EU age verification app not planning desktop support" is misleading because it gives the impression that there will be no way to support EU age verification on the desktop.

This is addressed in the comments:

> It should also be noted that this project is an example of a solution that is considered to meet certain requirements of the DSA, regarding the protection of minors. It does not prevent the use of other solutions that also meet those requirements.

So I think a better title might be "EU age verification example app not planning desktop support"

(don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of how this is implemented, but it's important to be accurate in our critique)

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#74

Post by zelphirkalt »

whatevaa wrote: post #60
mrtksn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App not available doesn't mean age verification not required. You can be required to confirm your account from your mobile phone or scan some QR code on mobile that will take you to age verification session and once completed you can continue from the desktop. I mean, otherwise would be like not being bound to speed limits if you don't have a speedometer.

So a loss of mobile phone will mean loss of everything? Maybe we should just kill people if they lose a portable mobile device which can just stop working by itself? I fully expect there to be some idiotic scenarios where to get x, you need to already have x.

Be as much work as possible in all places, where the default option is to do something with your mobile phone. If enough people do that, then the alternative to using your phone will need to have good process, so that it is not holding up everyone else.

If something doesn't work without your phone, report it being broken. If they tell you to use your phone, tell them you don't have one. If possible, leave their service, if they don't care.

We have to make it their issue as much as possible, when they try to push their shit onto us.

Surprisingly often there is a workable alternative to using ones smart phone. We have to make use of those as much as possible, so that the cost for them to get rid of those options will be high and they think twice before doing that and offending us.

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#75

Post by realusername »

hhh wrote: post #30
pjmlp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want do you think Windows 11, latest macOS, ChromeOS hardware requirements are all about? CoPilot+ PCs even require the same security chip as XBox and Azure Sphere IoT board (Pluton), in addition to TPM 2.0. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-...

Well, yeah. There’s no way to curb the modern cheating epidemic without increasing security measures. Riot Games via Valorant truly pushed the industry so far ahead by reducing their cheating percentages so low that the cost to cheat for more than a few weeks at a time is thousands of dollars a month. It’s not the sole reason, but it’s a solid one.

They have some other secret sauce for sure, there's tons of cheaters on console which is a vastly more locked down platform compared to pc.

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#76

Post by mrtksn »

whatevaa wrote: post #60
mrtksn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App not available doesn't mean age verification not required. You can be required to confirm your account from your mobile phone or scan some QR code on mobile that will take you to age verification session and once completed you can continue from the desktop. I mean, otherwise would be like not being bound to speed limits if you don't have a speedometer.

So a loss of mobile phone will mean loss of everything? Maybe we should just kill people if they lose a portable mobile device which can just stop working by itself? I fully expect there to be some idiotic scenarios where to get x, you need to already have x.

Why would loss of a mobile phone be that dramatic? Go buy a new one? Having the equipment in something that requires an equipment is pretty reasonable when the price range is within the reach of everybody.

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#77

Post by Fizzadar »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #66

Well, in the end there may only be one thing left we can collectively do, but which we surely won't collectively do, because too many of us are way too comfortable to accept any discomforts: We can avoid using services implementing shit, so that any business that singles out desktop users or disadvantages them, doesn't have much of a customer base. Voting with out feet. I have very little hope, that the common user w…

Depressingly this feels like a long lost battle. I suspect internet freedoms will continue to be eroded and by the time most people care enough it’ll be too late.

My optimistic brain is hopeful for federated services to become the norm and stand up to this kind of crap.

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#78

Post by jeroenhd »

dvdkon wrote: post #69
jeroenhd wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digital identity wallet isn't part of the DSA; it is part of an effort to bring identity to your phone, basically: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... If implemented according to plan, things like ID cards, drivers' licenses, diplomas, train tickets, and even payment control can be handled within such apps entirely digitally. Aside from age verification, with attribute based authentica…

Yes, but this isn't part of the digital wallet project. As I understand it, the Commision was so impatient with age-verification that they commissioned this project separately, because they didn't want to wait for the full solution, hence it being called a "mini-ID wallet". I'm certainly not against vigilance and making sure no new laws mandating the use of either this or the full digital wallet sneak through, but my…

That's true, but as this is only a small part of the larger project, it's also targeting a very specific part of legislation.

The README for the age verification spec specifically calls out article 28 of the DSA and the Louvain-la-Neuve Declaration. Neither is aiming to be the mandated age verification mechanism for every single website, but rather a specific tool to solve a specific problem: age limits on social media and big tech websites.

If, or, seeing Denmark's recent bullshit: when, we do get mandatory age requirements, it'll be part of new legislation that will likely take years to go into effect, and, seeing how long it took websites to comply with the GDPR, will start affecting most websites even later. This isn't the doomsday law that I would've expected to come from the US if they were to write something like this, and using privacy-first cryptography does give me some faint hope that this isn't just a big performance to hide malicious intent. This could've been as bad as eIDAS 2.0 with the QACs and other unreasonable technical requirements.

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#79

Post by mrtksn »

HK-NC wrote: post #68
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Tangentially, I would love to be able to see the age of everyone on the internet. IRL this gives us so much context when having an interaction.

Further tangent, I'm not big on digital ID and stuff overall but then I'll play an online game with cheaters and wonder if it's not the solution to things like this. Lifetime cross platform online game bans tied to your real life ID which you need to sign into this new all encompassing anticheat.

I don't think that anything should be as harsh ever but yes, having a reputation that goes everywhere with you is how we deal with problematic people in real life. That's how we stay civil without AI systems constantly scan us or some type of police constantly watching. Also, we tend to tolerate, forgive and eventually forget when someones behavior improves, so... Maybe actually having a continuous persona can help with the nihilistic tendencies too?

Re: EU age verification app not planning desktop support

#80

Post by Levitz »

mrtksn wrote: post #28
bilekas wrote: post #3

This is a great example of how this whole requirement hasn't been properly thought out. > Desktop support is not currently within the project's scope. What I would like to take from this is that, by their own definition, desktop apps are out of scope for Age Verification. So does that mean we will see a return of the 'desktop applications' instead of everything being a web service ? One can dream perhaps. Until then…

App not available doesn't mean age verification not required. You can be required to confirm your account from your mobile phone or scan some QR code on mobile that will take you to age verification session and once completed you can continue from the desktop. I mean, otherwise would be like not being bound to speed limits if you don't have a speedometer.

>I mean, otherwise would be like not being bound to speed limits if you don't have a speedometer.

That only works in a world in which the government provides speedometers, which restrict the vehicle automatically, and in this case they refuse to provide them at all for blue cars.

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