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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#71

Post by rkomorn »

vanviegen wrote: post #69
dijit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re being downvoted by idealists. I was an idealist, so I understand the position. Ideally, you explain your position and they explain theirs and it’s an open dialogue. Truthfully, you could be wrong about any number of things you have resolute conviction about- even things you believe are well evidenced. The cynic in me is aware that actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating t…

> You’re being downvoted by idealists. No, I think they are being downvoted because they dismiss a thoughtful comment that makes a good attempt at providing an actual answer to the question at hand as "full of shit".

I'd downvote that comment even if I agreed with it for the last sentence alone.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#72

Post by latexr »

dijit wrote: post #52
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

You’re being downvoted by idealists. I was an idealist, so I understand the position. Ideally, you explain your position and they explain theirs and it’s an open dialogue. Truthfully, you could be wrong about any number of things you have resolute conviction about- even things you believe are well evidenced. The cynic in me is aware that actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating t…

> You’re being downvoted by idealists.

Seems more likely the downvotes are related to the last sentence. Telling someone they are “full of shit” is not the type of curious discourse HN wants to promote.

That being the case, you might be getting downvoted for incorrectly assessing the situation and inaccurately placing blame.

I’m speculating, as it’s impossible to know what went through the heads of those who came before, but seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#73

Post by immibis »

saagarjha wrote: post #62
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

It’s not? There’s ample evidence to support the earth being round. If you have legitimate evidence to the contrary I’d be happy to listen to you.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff.

If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#74

Post by latexr »

saagarjha wrote: post #62
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

It’s not? There’s ample evidence to support the earth being round. If you have legitimate evidence to the contrary I’d be happy to listen to you.

> If you have legitimate evidence

That’s a tremendously high bar. Who defines what constitutes “legitimate” evidence? Anyone can disagree on what that means and you’re back to square one.

Look up “The Final Experiment” and its aftermath. Despite convincing the flat earthers who participated, the ones who observed it via livestream dug their heels in further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expediti...

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#75

Post by lukan »

voxl wrote: post #35
dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. "

Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space).

So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned religion before. By memorising it, not by applying the scientific principle of questioning everything and aim for confirmation via experiment. Some flat earthers are actually more "scientific" in the way that they try out (weird) experiments and not just believe things. (But most probably do have a serious mental condition)

Long story short, this could have been the start of a interesting debate, if you would not have finished your argument with that insult.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#76

Post by apples_oranges »

steve1977 wrote: post #66

Every effective communication is manipulation to a degree. There is no influence without manipulation. A baby smiling at you is manipulation. This is nothing bad in itself.

I think a distinction based on honest vs dishonest communication can be made

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#78

Post by latexr »

steve1977 wrote: post #66

Every effective communication is manipulation to a degree. There is no influence without manipulation. A baby smiling at you is manipulation. This is nothing bad in itself.

Feels to me like that is addressed by the very first sentence in the article:

> We influence others every day, whether we intend to or not.

And then it’s expanded as it continues.

> Every effective communication is manipulation to a degree.

Yes, to a degree. Seems to me the author is attempting to be pragmatic and not let excessive pedantry cloud the larger point. A friend trying to convince you to stop smoking because they want you to live healthier for longer may be technically manipulating you, but that’s not a useful definition and realistically no one would colloquially consider it to be the case. Whenever you find yourself dismissing an argument because a word can be applied universally, instead steelman the author’s argument by trying to understand the definition they are working with.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#80

Post by saagarjha »

immibis wrote: post #73
saagarjha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not? There’s ample evidence to support the earth being round. If you have legitimate evidence to the contrary I’d be happy to listen to you.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff. If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

Yes, but the round earther can provide a model that matches your observations. Round earth is a better model because it matches reality more often while also accounting for a lot of the obvious flat earth arguments (mostly, that they hold true locally).
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