Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK • Hacker News Board

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#71

Post by patanegra » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:38 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #11

patanegra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Is it? Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

It's always the same argument.

If you are world-class talent (someone who gets to Oxford), you should be capable of similar results as kids from independent schools. Like Joe Seddon did (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Seddon - growing up with a single parent mom, working as a therapist in NHS).

It isn't fair to ask ones to have 4A* and others to have just 3As.

Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A.

And 1 in 83 gets 3 As.

Making it 31 easier for people from state school is discrimination so bad, it should be illegal.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#72

Post by afavour » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:39 PM UTC

joefarish wrote: post #25

I'm not saying it's wrong but people are reacting to this as if the Times university guide is some objective truth. Regarding the potential lowering of standards for widening participation purposes, this doesn't change the fact that the entry standards for Oxford and Cambridge are still higher than LSE and St. Andrews.

I don't know anyone at Oxford but do have friends who work in higher education. From what I hear from them Brexit has turned UK higher education upside down when it comes to funding and research. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is a consequence of some universities navigating that better than others.

But you don't get anywhere near as much online outrage with that theory so "leftists are ruining western civilisation" wins out again.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#73

Post by ofa0e » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:39 PM UTC

joosters wrote: post #52

patanegra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

Oxbridge have never had to 'let in dumber people'. They are always heavily over-subscribed, and give offers to a small fraction of the people who come for an interview, let alone apply. The whole point of the interview process is to assess not just the applicant's past achievements, but what they might be able to achieve if they got their place at the uni. Part of that is looking at the applicant's background, and kn…

[dead]

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#74

Post by croes » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:40 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #53

afavour wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be wonderful if we could, just once, have a conversation about something happening outside the US without bringing in US culture war talking points.

As somebody that's not from the UK and not from the US, knowing this guy cheered the murder of Charlie Kirk gives me a strong hint about the kind of person it's being talked about. So yes, in that sense it's an useful piece of information.

Given the violence Kirk paved the way and how he shrugged off gun related deaths as necessary evil for the 2nd amendment, I see no great difference in unsympathetic behavior of both.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#75

Post by patanegra » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:40 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #44

ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Is it? Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

But does Oxford want the best student or some that had to work harder but ultimately aren't as good? In France, our elite scientific schools recruit students based on anonymous nationwide tests. It turns out most of the recruits come from privileged backgrounds, and I've heard this is more the case today than it was several decades ago. I'd love to see more diversity in these schools, but I prefer to maintain our edu…

Clearly, it's because talented people grow to the top (not just economically, they might be cultural elites, like people working in news, academia). Then, they marry people who are on the top. And they pass their genes and habits.

It's nothing bad that their kids end up good students again.

I think that French system is superior. It gives fair chances to everyone.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#76

Post by abxyz » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:41 PM UTC

patanegra wrote: post #5

abxyz wrote: post #2

pg thinks this is because of letting in poor people: https://xcancel.com/paulg/status/1969334665375813679

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

It is a very fair read of Paul's take.

I attended one of the worst secondary schools in the country. Less than 10% of my year earned the qualifications necessary to go on to university. I know that many of these people, who have gone on to be successful in life, would have excelled at an independent school and would have excelled at university. They were in poverty, not stupid.

You cannot compare the achievements of a student at an independent school to those of a student at a state school based on grades. State school and independent school are a fundamentally different educational experience.

If you think Cambridge and Oxford exist to accept the highest graded students in the country, rather than to accept the students that have the most academic potential, then sure, let's only admit students who have 3 A*s.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#77

Post by growse » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:41 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #44

ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Is it? Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

But does Oxford want the best student or some that had to work harder but ultimately aren't as good? In France, our elite scientific schools recruit students based on anonymous nationwide tests. It turns out most of the recruits come from privileged backgrounds, and I've heard this is more the case today than it was several decades ago. I'd love to see more diversity in these schools, but I prefer to maintain our edu…

If you can pay to be better at the test, then the test just becomes a test of how wealthy you are.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#78

Post by toast0 » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:42 PM UTC

geremiiah wrote: post #57

afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.

In America, we have a classless society and everyone claims to be middle class.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#79

Post by patanegra » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:42 PM UTC

trial3 wrote: post #39

dukeyukey wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about individual cases, we're talking about statistical averages.

Maybe the statistically average kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, the statistically average Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

Maybe statistically gifted child is more often than not born to parents who were gifted too. Then, they read more to the child, speak more with him. And maybe either have higher disposable income, or liberty to recommend books, and learn with the child.

In the future, it's going to be a nil argument anyway, as world-class AI tutors are going to be available for every child 24/7 for a penny.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#80

Post by asib » Sun, Sep 21, 2025, 4:42 PM UTC

nicce wrote: post #63

foven wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kids at private schools are specifically primed for every part of the application process, including the interview and interview questions in a way that state schools simply cannot. It does not matter how smart you are if your competition is able to practice in a way you cannot.

Why the process is not fixed from that part? Redesign in a way that private schools will not get any benefit from the process itself.

It is, via the interview. This is why A-level results are a coarse filter, and why they have different standards for state vs private schools; state school kids with 3 A's presumably excel in the interview to the same extent as private school kids with 3 A*'s.

It cannot be understated how much of an advantage someone who went to a private school has over someone from a state school, with respect to the entire process (exams/admissions tests/interview prep).