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Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

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Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#71

Post by hedgehog »

IshKebab wrote: post #57
bArray wrote: post #54

Maybe I'm just old and moany, and I need to step aside for bigger and better things such as Rust. But. Now rather than needing to understand just C to work on Git/kernel, you now need to also know Rust. The toolchain complexity is increasing, and the mix of these languages increases the barrier to entry. I'm highly invested into Git, having learned the tooling and having a significant number of projects constructed w…

> I'm just old and moany, and I need to step aside for bigger and better things such as Rust. You are. This is firm "I don't want to have to learn new things" territory, which isn't a viable attitude in this industry. In any case Rust is usually easier than C (excluding buggy C which is very easy to write), and certainly easier than actually learning the Git or Linux codebases.

I think it is often under appreciated by people who haven't worked in security how hard high quality C is in practice.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#72

Post by saghm »

jmillikin wrote: post #9
politelemon wrote: post #2

> Introducing Rust is impossible for some platforms and hard for others. Please could someone elaborate on this.

There's at least one proprietary platform that supports Git built by via a vendor-provided C compiler, but for which no public documentation exists and therefore no LLVM support is possible. Ctrl+F for "NonStop" in https://lwn.net/Articles/998115/

At this point maybe it's time to let them solve the problem they've created for themselves by insisting on a closed C compiler in 2025.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#74

Post by bArray »

saghm wrote: post #66
matheusmoreira wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also sent some patches git's way and I can't say I'm thrilled about being forced to (finally) learn Rust if I want to contribute again in the future. I guess I'm outdated...

They're proposing porting over one small piece that has no dependencies and exposing it to the rest of git via a C interface. Yes, they'll presumably port more over in the future if it goes well, but it's a gross exaggeration to characterize this as somehow making it impossible to contribute without knowing Rust.

I know that it is a "slippery slope" argument, but in the future, it will become more difficult to contribute without knowing Rust. That's the entire point of introducing it.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#75

Post by alexchamberlain »

monkeyelite wrote: post #29

How does this help me as a user of git?

The developers of git will continue to be motivated to contribute to it. (This isn’t specific to Rust, but rather the technical choices of OSS probably aren’t generally putting the user at the top of the priority list.)

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#76

Post by kstrauser »

milch wrote: post #67
kstrauser wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly agree. I read some of the counter arguments, like this will make it too hard for NonStop devs to use git, and maybe make them not use it at all. Those don’t resonate with me at all. So what? What value does them using git provide to the git developers? I couldn’t care less if NonStop devs can use my own software at all. And since they’re exclusively at giant, well-financed corporations, they can crack open…

"You have to backport security fixes for your own tiny platform because your build environment doesn't support our codebase or make your build environment support our codebase" seems like a 100% reasonable stance to me

I’m sold.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#77

Post by motorest »

bArray wrote: post #54

Maybe I'm just old and moany, and I need to step aside for bigger and better things such as Rust. But. Now rather than needing to understand just C to work on Git/kernel, you now need to also know Rust. The toolchain complexity is increasing, and the mix of these languages increases the barrier to entry. I'm highly invested into Git, having learned the tooling and having a significant number of projects constructed w…

> Now rather than needing to understand just C to work on Git/kernel, you now need to also know Rust.

I'm yet to know a single software engineer who isn't well versed on multiple programming languages. This is not a problem.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#78

Post by daft_pink »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #48
ziml77 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! I'd certainly say that's worth something. Definitely didn't expect it though given how poorly some people have reacted to Rust being introduced as an optional part of the Linux kernel.

It's a lot more understandable for developer tooling like Git to more quickly adopt newer system requirements. Something like the Linux kernel needs to be conservative because it's part of many people's bootstrapping process. rustc_codegen_gcc is close to becoming stable, and conversely the Linux kernel is dropping more esoteric architectures. Once the supported sets of architectures fully overlap, and once the Linux…

I would also say that it’s a lot easier to learn to write rust when you’re writing something that runs sequentially on a single core in userspace as opposed to something like the Linux kernel. Having dipped my toes in rust that seems very approachable. When you start doing async concurrency is when the learning curve becomes steep.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#79

Post by hedgehog »

zozbot234 wrote: post #46
maximilianburke wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they can resurrect the C backend for LLVM and run that through their proprietary compilers? It's probably not straightforward but the users of NonStop hardware have a lot of money so I'm sure they could find a way.

Rust has an experimental C backend of its own as part of rustc_codegen_clr https://github.com/FractalFir/rustc_codegen_clr . Would probably work better than trying to transpile C from general LLVM IR.

Some people have demonstrated portability using the WASM target, translating that to C89 via w2c2, and then compiling _that_ for the final target.

Re: Git: Introduce Rust and announce it will become mandatory in the build system

#80

Post by matheusmoreira »

saghm wrote: post #66
matheusmoreira wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also sent some patches git's way and I can't say I'm thrilled about being forced to (finally) learn Rust if I want to contribute again in the future. I guess I'm outdated...

They're proposing porting over one small piece that has no dependencies and exposing it to the rest of git via a C interface. Yes, they'll presumably port more over in the future if it goes well, but it's a gross exaggeration to characterize this as somehow making it impossible to contribute without knowing Rust.

I understand that it's a minor change in its current state. However, it is a fact that the long term goal is to port everything to rust. Once that goal is accomplished, rust will be required. So it is not at all a gross exaggeration. It's a prediction of the future.

I don't even disagree with that goal, I think it's desirable that things be written in rust, it's a really good language that provides a lot of benefits. I think I've just been infected with the C virus too long. I can't even tolerate C++.

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